Devadahasutta

Majjhima Nikāya 101

At Devadaha · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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thus·speaker·tooEvaṁvādīpi indeedkho Iahaṁ, O monksbhikkhave, among the Jainsnigaṇṭhesu notna anykañci with·righteoussahadhammikaṁ doctrine·defensevādapaṭihāraṁ I seesamanupassāmi.

When I said this, I did not see any legitimate defense of their doctrine from the Jains.

againPuna and furthercaparāhaṁ, monksbhikkhave, thosete Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhe thusevaṁ I sayvadāmi:
that‘taṁ whatkiṁ do you think, reverendsmaññathāvuso Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhā, which + thisyamidaṁ deedkammaṁ seen·here·to-be-experienceddiṭṭhadhammavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by strivingpadhānena orvā future·to-be-experiencedsamparāyavedanīyaṁ let it be; quotation markerhotūti can this be gottenlabbhametan’ti?
no‘No indeed + thishidaṁ, reverendāvuso’.
but‘Yaṁ but thispanidaṁ deedkammaṁ future·to-be-experiencedsamparāyavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by strivingpadhānena orvā seen·here·to-be-experienceddiṭṭhadhammavedanīyaṁ let it be; quotation markerhotūti can this be gottenlabbhametan’ti?
no‘No indeed + thishidaṁ, reverendāvuso’.

Furthermore, I said to those Jain ascetics, ‘What do you think, reverends? If a deed is to be experienced in this life, can exertion make it be experienced in lives to come?’ ‘No, reverend.’ ‘But if a deed is to be experienced in lives to come, can exertion make it be experienced in this life?’ ‘No, reverend.’

that‘Taṁ what?kiṁ do you think, reverendsmaññathāvuso Nigaṇṭhasnigaṇṭhā, which + hereyamidaṁ deedkammaṁ pleasant·to-be-experiencedsukhavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by effortpadhānena orvā painful·to-be-experienceddukkhavedanīyaṁ let it behotūti can this be obtained?labbhametan’ti?
No‘No indeed + thishidaṁ, reverendāvuso’.
which‘Yaṁ but this herepanidaṁ deedkammaṁ painful·to-be-experienceddukkhavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by effortpadhānena orvā pleasant·to-be-experiencedsukhavedanīyaṁ let it behotūti can this be obtained?labbhametan’ti?
No‘No indeed + thishidaṁ, reverendāvuso’.

‘What do you think, reverends? If a deed is to be experienced as pleasant, can exertion make it be experienced as painful?’ ‘No, reverend.’ ‘But if a deed is to be experienced as painful, can exertion make it be experienced as pleasant?’ ‘No, reverend.’

that‘Taṁ what?kiṁ do you think, reverendsmaññathāvuso Nigaṇṭhasnigaṇṭhā, which indeed thisyamidaṁ deedkammaṁ to be experienced when ripeparipakkavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by strivingpadhānena orvā to be experienced when unripeaparipakkavedanīyaṁ let it be; quotation markerhotūti is it possible?labbhametan’ti?
no‘No indeed, reverendhidaṁ, reverendāvuso’.
which‘Yaṁ but indeed thispanidaṁ deedkammaṁ to be experienced when unripeaparipakkavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by strivingpadhānena orvā to be experienced when ripeparipakkavedanīyaṁ let it be; quotation markerhotūti is it possible?labbhametan’ti?
no‘No indeed, reverendhidaṁ, reverendāvuso’.

‘What do you think, reverends? If a deed is to be experienced when ripe, can exertion make it be experienced when unripe?’ ‘No, reverend.’ ‘But if a deed is to be experienced when unripe, can exertion make it be experienced when ripe?’ ‘No, reverend.’

that‘Taṁ what?kiṁ do you think, reverends?maññathāvuso Nigaṇṭhas,nigaṇṭhā, which + thisyamidaṁ deedkammaṁ much·to-be-experiencedbahuvedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by effortpadhānena orvā little·to-be-experiencedappavedanīyaṁ let it be, they sayhotūti this is possible?labbhametan’ti?
no‘No indeed,hidaṁ, reverend.āvuso’.
that which‘Yaṁ but thispanidaṁ deedkammaṁ little·to-be-experiencedappavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by effortpadhānena orvā much·to-be-experiencedbahuvedanīyaṁ let it be, they sayhotūti this is possible?labbhametan’ti?
no‘No indeed,hidaṁ, reverend.āvuso’.

‘What do you think, reverends? If a deed is to be experienced a lot, can exertion make it be experienced a little?’ ‘No, reverend.’ ‘But if a deed is to be experienced a little, can exertion make it be experienced a lot?’ ‘No, reverend.’

'that‘Taṁ what?kiṁ do you think, reverends?maññathāvuso Nigaṇṭhas,nigaṇṭhā, which + thisyamidaṁ deedkammaṁ with·experienceablesavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by strivingpadhānena orvā not·experienceableavedanīyaṁ may it be so?hotūti is that possible?'labbhametan’ti?
'No‘No indeed + thishidaṁ, reverend'.āvuso’.
'But‘Yaṁ but + thispanidaṁ deedkammaṁ not·experienceableavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by strivingpadhānena orvā with·experienceablesavedanīyaṁ may it be so?hotūti is that possible?'labbhametan’ti?
'No‘No indeed + thishidaṁ, reverend'.āvuso’.

‘What do you think, reverends? If a deed is to be experienced, can exertion make it not be experienced?’ ‘No, reverend.’ ‘But if a deed is not to be experienced, can exertion make it be experienced?’ ‘No, reverend.’

‘So it seems that exertion cannot change the way deeds are experienced in any of these ways.

thusevaṁ being sosante venerable onesāyasmantānaṁ of the Nigaṇṭhasnigaṇṭhānaṁ not·fruitaphalo up·doupakkamo ishoti, not·fruitaphalaṁ strivingpadhānaṁ’.

This being so, your exertion and striving are fruitless.’

thus·speakingEvaṁvādī, monksbhikkhave, Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhā.
thus·speakingEvaṁvādīnaṁ, monksbhikkhave, of the Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhānaṁ tendasa with·legitimatesahadhammikā statement·rebuttalvādānuvādā deserving of censuregārayhaṁ groundṭhānaṁ to·goāgacchanti.
ifSace, monksbhikkhave, sentient beingssattā past·done·causepubbekatahetu pleasure·painsukhadukkhaṁ in return·together·feelpaṭisaṁvedenti;
clearlyaddhā, monksbhikkhave, the Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhā in the pastpubbe bad·done·doer of deedsdukkaṭakammakārino sinceyaṁ nowetarahi such·formevarūpā painfuldukkhā sharptibbā bitingkaṭukā painful feelingsvedanā they experiencevediyanti.
ifSace, monksbhikkhave, sentient beingssattā God·creation·causeissaranimmānahetu pleasure·painsukhadukkhaṁ in return·together·feelpaṭisaṁvedenti;
clearlyaddhā, monksbhikkhave, the Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhā by a bad Godpāpakena by Godissarena creatednimmitā sinceyaṁ nowetarahi such·formevarūpā painfuldukkhā sharptibbā bitingkaṭukā painful feelingsvedanā they experiencevediyanti.
ifSace, monksbhikkhave, sentient beingssattā circumstance·nature·causesaṅgatibhāvahetu pleasure·painsukhadukkhaṁ in return·together·feelpaṭisaṁvedenti;
clearlyaddhā, monksbhikkhave, the Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhā bad·arising from circumstancespāpasaṅgatikā sinceyaṁ nowetarahi such·formevarūpā painfuldukkhā sharptibbā bitingkaṭukā painful feelingsvedanā they experiencevediyanti.
ifSace, monksbhikkhave, sentient beingssattā higher·birth·causeabhijātihetu pleasure·painsukhadukkhaṁ in return·together·feelpaṭisaṁvedenti;
clearlyaddhā, monksbhikkhave, the Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhā bad·reborn in a classpāpābhijātikā sinceyaṁ nowetarahi such·formevarūpā painfuldukkhā sharptibbā bitingkaṭukā painful feelingsvedanā they experiencevediyanti.
ifSace, monksbhikkhave, sentient beingssattā seen·dhamma·exertion·causediṭṭhadhammūpakkamahetu pleasure·painsukhadukkhaṁ in return·together·feelpaṭisaṁvedenti;

Such is the doctrine of the Jain ascetics. Saying this, the Jain ascetics deserve rebuttal and criticism on ten legitimate grounds. If sentient beings experience pleasure and pain because of past deeds, clearly the Jains have done bad deeds in the past, since they now experience such intense pain. If sentient beings experience pleasure and pain because of God Almighty’s creation, clearly the Jains were created by a bad God, since they now experience such intense pain. If sentient beings experience pleasure and pain because of circumstance and nature, clearly the Jains arise from bad circumstances, since they now experience such intense pain. If sentient beings experience pleasure and pain because of the class of rebirth, clearly the Jains have been reborn in a bad class, since they now experience such intense pain. If sentient beings experience pleasure and pain because of exertion in this life,

clearly the Jains exert themselves badly in this life, since they now experience such intense pain. The Jains deserve criticism whether or not sentient beings experience pleasure and pain because of past deeds, or God Almighty’s creation, or circumstance and nature, or class of rebirth, or exertion in this life. Such is the doctrine of the Jain ascetics.

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