Cūḷasaccakasutta

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Majjhima Nikāya 35

The Shorter Discourse With Saccaka · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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this‘etaṁ minemama, I am thisesohamasmi, thiseso myme selfattā’”ti?
no“No indeedhidaṁ, worthybho Gotamagotama”.

‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?” “No, worthy Gotama.”

“What do you think, Aggivessana? Consider someone who resorts, draws near, and clings to suffering, regarding it thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self.’ Would they be able to completely understand suffering themselves, or live having wiped out suffering?” “How could they? No, worthy Gotama.” “What do you think, Aggivessana? This being so, aren’t you someone who resorts, draws near, and clings to suffering, regarding it thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?” “How could I not? Yes, worthy Gotama.”

just as“Seyyathāpi, Aggivessanaaggivessana, a personpuriso heartwood·needsāratthiko heartwood·seeksāragavesī search for heartwoodsārapariyesanaṁ wanderingcaramāno sharptiṇhaṁ axekuṭhāriṁ toward·takeādāya forestvanaṁ would enterpaviseyya.
heSo theretattha would seepasseyya bigmahantaṁ banana·trunkkadalikkhandhaṁ straightujuṁ youngnavaṁ grown unskewedakukkukajātaṁ.
itTamenaṁ at the basemūle would cutchindeyya, at the basemūle having cutchetvā at the topagge would cutchindeyya, at the topagge having cutchetvā leaf·coilpattavaṭṭiṁ would unrollvinibbhujeyya.
heSo theretattha leaf·coilpattavaṭṭiṁ apart·down·unrollvinibbhujanto even sapwoodpheggumpi would not findnādhigaccheyya, how much lesskuto heartwood?sāraṁ?
in the same wayEvameva indeedkho youtvaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, by memayā in your ownsakasmiṁ doctrinevāde pursuedsamanuyuñjiyamāno pressedsamanugāhiyamāno grilledsamanubhāsiyamāno vacuousritto hollowtuccho mistakenaparaddho.
statedBhāsitā indeedkho butpana by youte thisesā, Aggivessanaaggivessana, in Vesālīvesāliyaṁ in the assemblyparisati speechvācā:
I do not‘nāhaṁ anytaṁ seepassāmi asceticsamaṇaṁ orvā brahminbrāhmaṇaṁ orvā, leader of an ordersaṅghiṁ leader of a communitygaṇiṁ tutor of a communitygaṇācariyaṁ, evenapi a perfected onearahantaṁ fully·awakened Buddhasammāsambuddhaṁ claimingpaṭijānamānaṁ, whoyo by memayā in debatevādena debatevādaṁ taken onsamāraddho notna would shakesaṅkampeyya notna would rocksampakampeyya notna would tremblesampavedheyya, of whomyassa notna from the armpitskacchehi sweatsedā would be releasedmucceyyuṁ.

“Suppose, Aggivessana, there was a person in need of heartwood. Wandering in search of heartwood, they’d take a sharp axe and enter a forest. There they’d see a big banana trunk, straight and young and grown unskewed. They’d cut it down at the base, cut off the top, and unroll the coiled sheaths. But they wouldn’t even find sapwood, much less heartwood. In the same way, when pursued, pressed, and grilled by me on your own doctrine, you turn out to be vacuous, hollow, and mistaken. But it was you who stated before the assembly of Vesālī: ‘I don’t see any ascetic or brahmin who would not shake and rock and tremble, sweating from the armpits, were I to take them on in debate—not a leader of an order or a community, or the tutor of a community, and not even one who claims to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha.

postThūṇaṁ if Icepāhaṁ not·sentientacetanaṁ in debatevādena debatevādaṁ together·onto·takesamārabheyyaṁ it·toosāpi by memayā in debatevādena debatevādaṁ together·onto·takensamāraddhā together·shakesaṅkampeyya together·forth·shakesampakampeyya together·forth·tremblesampavedheyya.
howKo thenpana speechvādo human beingmanussabhūtassā’ti?
yourTuyhaṁ indeedkho butpana, Aggivessanaaggivessana, someappekaccāni sweat dropssedaphusitāni from foreheadnalāṭā releasedmuttāni, upper·robeuttarāsaṅgaṁ apart·down·breakvinibhinditvā on groundbhūmiyaṁ standingpatiṭṭhitāni.
myMayhaṁ indeedkho butpana, Aggivessanaaggivessana, there is notnatthi nowetarahi in bodykāyasmiṁ sweatsedo”ti.
thusIti the Blessed Onebhagavā in thattasmiṁ assemblyparisati golden·coloredsuvaṇṇavaṇṇaṁ bodykāyaṁ apart·openvivari.
thusEvaṁ when saidvutte, Saccakasaccako Nigaṇṭha·sonnigaṇṭhaputto silent·beingtuṇhībhūto dismayed·beingmaṅkubhūto shoulders·droopingpattakkhandho down·faceadhomukho depressedpajjhāyanto not·having replyappaṭibhāno down·satnisīdi.

Even an insentient post would shake and rock and tremble were I to take it on in debate. How much more then a human being!’ But sweat is pouring from your forehead; it’s soaked through your robe and drips on the ground. While I now have no sweat on my body.” So the Buddha revealed his golden body to the assembly. When this was said, Saccaka sat silent, dismayed, shoulders drooping, downcast, depressed, with nothing to say.

thenAtha indeedkho Dummukhadummukho the Licchavi sonlicchaviputto Saccakasaccakaṁ the Nigaṇṭha sonnigaṇṭhaputtaṁ silent·becometuṇhībhūtaṁ dismayed·becomemaṅkubhūtaṁ shoulder·drooppattakkhandhaṁ down·faceadhomukhaṁ broodingpajjhāyantaṁ not·ready speechappaṭibhānaṁ having knownviditvā the Blessed Onebhagavantaṁ this·sayetadavoca:
a simile“upamā to memaṁ, Blessed Onebhagavā, it occurspaṭibhātī”ti.
let it occur“Paṭibhātu to youtaṁ, Dummukhadummukhā”ti the Blessed Onebhagavā saidavoca.
suppose“Seyyathāpi, sirbhante, of a villagegāmassa orvā of a townnigamassa orvā not·faravidūre a lotus pondpokkharaṇī.
there wasTatrāssa a crabkakkaṭako.
thenAtha indeedkho, sirbhante, severalsambahulā boyskumārakā orvā girlskumārikā orvā from thattamhā villagegāmā orvā townnigamā orvā out·gonikkhamitvā towards whichyena thatsā lotus pondpokkharaṇī it·approachtenupasaṅkameyyuṁ; having approachedupasaṅkamitvā thattaṁ lotus pondpokkharaṇiṁ having enteredogāhetvā thattaṁ crabkakkaṭakaṁ from the waterudakā out·pulluddharitvā on solid groundthale down·standpatiṭṭhāpeyyuṁ.
whateverYaññadeva indeedhi thatso, sirbhante, crabkakkaṭako a clawaḷaṁ out·extendabhininnāmeyya thattaṁ that·verytadeva thosete boyskumārakā orvā girlskumārikā orvā with a stickkaṭṭhena orvā with a stonekathalena orvā off·snapsañchindeyyuṁ together·cracksambhañjeyyuṁ together·off·breaksampalibhañjeyyuṁ.
and thusEvañhi thatso, sirbhante, crabkakkaṭako by allsabbehi clawsaḷehi off·snapsañchinnehi together·cracksambhaggehi together·off·breaksampalibhaggehi not·ableabhabbo thattaṁ lotus pondpokkharaṇiṁ againpuna to descend intootarituṁ, just asseyyathāpi beforepubbe.

Knowing this, the Licchavi Dummukha said to the Buddha, “A simile strikes me, Blessed One.” “Then speak as you feel inspired,” said the Buddha. “Sir, suppose there was a lotus pond not far from a town or village, and a crab lived there. Then several boys or girls would leave the town or village and go to the pond, where they’d pull out the crab and put it on solid ground. Whenever that crab extended a claw, those boys or girls would snap, crack, and break it off with a stick or a stone. And when that crab’s claws had all been snapped, cracked, and broken off it wouldn’t be able to return down into that lotus pond.

thus·justEvameva indeedkho, sirbhante, whicheveryāni of Saccakasaccakassa Jain·sonnigaṇṭhaputtassa twistsvisūkāyitāni apart·swervevisevitāni apart·thrashvipphanditāni those·tootānipi allsabbāni by the Buddhabhagavatā snappedsañchinnāni crackedsambhaggāni broken offsampalibhaggāni;
unableabhabbo andca nowdāni, sirbhante, Saccakasaccako the Jain sonnigaṇṭhaputto againpuna the Buddhabhagavantaṁ near·goupasaṅkamituṁ which + thisyadidaṁ looking for a debatevādādhippāyo”ti.

In the same way, sir, the Buddha has snapped, cracked, and broken off all Saccaka’s twists, ducks, and dodges. Now he can’t get near the Buddha again looking for a debate.”

thusEvaṁ when this was saidvutte, Saccakasaccako Nigaṇṭha·sonnigaṇṭhaputto Dummukhadummukhaṁ Licchavi·sonlicchaviputtaṁ said this to himetadavoca:
wait“āgamehi youtvaṁ, Dummukhadummukha, waitāgamehi youtvaṁ, Dummukhadummukha, (…)(…) notna wemayaṁ with youtayā withsaddhiṁ we discussmantema, hereidha wemayaṁ with the worthybhotā Gotamagotamena withsaddhiṁ we discussmantema.
leave aside thisTiṭṭhatesā, worthybho Gotamagotama, of us andamhākañceva of others andaññesañca various·ascetic·brahminsputhusamaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ statementvācā.
nonsenseVilāpaṁ spokenvilapitaṁ I thinkmaññe.
to what extentKittāvatā andca thennu indeedkho of the worthybhoto Gotamagotamassa disciplesāvako instruction·doingsāsanakaro ishoti advice·respondingovādapatikaro crossed·doubttiṇṇavicikiccho gone·indecisionvigatakathaṅkatho assurance·attainedvesārajjappatto other·relianceaparappaccayo teacher·instructionsatthusāsane dwellsviharatī”ti?
here“Idha, Aggivessanaaggivessana, mymama disciplesāvako whateveryaṁ anykiñci formrūpaṁ past future or presentatītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ internalajjhattaṁ orvā externalbahiddhā orvā solidoḷārikaṁ orvā subtlesukhumaṁ orvā inferiorhīnaṁ orvā superiorpaṇītaṁ orvā whateveryaṁ fardūre nearsantike orvā, allsabbaṁ formrūpaṁ this is not‘netaṁ minemama, I am not thisnesohamasmi, notna this is mymeso selfattā’ti thus·thisevametaṁ as·becomeyathābhūtaṁ with right understandingsammappaññāya seespassati;
whateveryā anykāci feelingvedanā …pe……pe…
whateveryā anykāci perceptionsaññā …pe……pe…
whateverye anykeci choicessaṅkhārā …pe……pe…

But Saccaka said to him, “Hold on, Dummukha, hold on! I wasn’t talking with you, I was talking with the worthy Gotama. Worthy Gotama, leave aside that statement I made—as did various other ascetics and brahmins— it was, like, just a bit of nonsense. How do you define a disciple of the worthy Gotama who follows instructions and responds to advice; who has gone beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, gained assurance, and is independent of others in the Teacher’s instructions?” “It’s when one of my disciples truly sees any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: all form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ They truly see any kind of feeling … perception … choices …

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