Cūḷasaccakasutta

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Majjhima Nikāya 35

The Shorter Discourse With Saccaka · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’”ti?
“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.

‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?” “No, worthy Gotama.”

“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,
yo nu kho dukkhaṁ allīno dukkhaṁ upagato dukkhaṁ ajjhosito, dukkhaṁ ‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati, api nu kho so sāmaṁ vā dukkhaṁ parijāneyya, dukkhaṁ vā parikkhepetvā vihareyyā”ti?
“Kiñhi siyā, bho gotama?
No hidaṁ, bho gotamā”ti.
“Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,
nanu tvaṁ evaṁ sante dukkhaṁ allīno dukkhaṁ upagato dukkhaṁ ajjhosito, dukkhaṁ:
‘etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassasī”ti?
“Kiñhi no siyā, bho gotama?
Evametaṁ, bho gotamā”ti.

“What do you think, Aggivessana? Consider someone who resorts, draws near, and clings to suffering, regarding it thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self.’ Would they be able to completely understand suffering themselves, or live having wiped out suffering?” “How could they? No, worthy Gotama.” “What do you think, Aggivessana? This being so, aren’t you someone who resorts, draws near, and clings to suffering, regarding it thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?” “How could I not? Yes, worthy Gotama.”

“Seyyathāpi, aggivessana, puriso sāratthiko sāragavesī sārapariyesanaṁ caramāno tiṇhaṁ kuṭhāriṁ ādāya vanaṁ paviseyya.
So tattha passeyya mahantaṁ kadalikkhandhaṁ ujuṁ navaṁ akukkukajātaṁ.
Tamenaṁ mūle chindeyya, mūle chetvā agge chindeyya, agge chetvā pattavaṭṭiṁ vinibbhujeyya.
So tattha pattavaṭṭiṁ vinibbhujanto pheggumpi nādhigaccheyya, kuto sāraṁ?
Evameva kho tvaṁ, aggivessana, mayā sakasmiṁ vāde samanuyuñjiyamāno samanugāhiyamāno samanubhāsiyamāno ritto tuccho aparaddho.
Bhāsitā kho pana te esā, aggivessana, vesāliyaṁ parisati vācā:
‘nāhaṁ taṁ passāmi samaṇaṁ vā brāhmaṇaṁ vā, saṅghiṁ gaṇiṁ gaṇācariyaṁ, api arahantaṁ sammāsambuddhaṁ paṭijānamānaṁ, yo mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddho na saṅkampeyya na sampakampeyya na sampavedheyya, yassa na kacchehi sedā mucceyyuṁ.

“Suppose, Aggivessana, there was a person in need of heartwood. Wandering in search of heartwood, they’d take a sharp axe and enter a forest. There they’d see a big banana trunk, straight and young and grown unskewed. They’d cut it down at the base, cut off the top, and unroll the coiled sheaths. But they wouldn’t even find sapwood, much less heartwood. In the same way, when pursued, pressed, and grilled by me on your own doctrine, you turn out to be vacuous, hollow, and mistaken. But it was you who stated before the assembly of Vesālī: ‘I don’t see any ascetic or brahmin who would not shake and rock and tremble, sweating from the armpits, were I to take them on in debate—not a leader of an order or a community, or the tutor of a community, and not even one who claims to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha.

Thūṇaṁ cepāhaṁ acetanaṁ vādena vādaṁ samārabheyyaṁ sāpi mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddhā saṅkampeyya sampakampeyya sampavedheyya.
Ko pana vādo manussabhūtassā’ti?
Tuyhaṁ kho pana, aggivessana, appekaccāni sedaphusitāni nalāṭā muttāni, uttarāsaṅgaṁ vinibhinditvā bhūmiyaṁ patiṭṭhitāni.
Mayhaṁ kho pana, aggivessana, natthi etarahi kāyasmiṁ sedo”ti.
Iti bhagavā tasmiṁ parisati suvaṇṇavaṇṇaṁ kāyaṁ vivari.
Evaṁ vutte, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto tuṇhībhūto maṅkubhūto pattakkhandho adhomukho pajjhāyanto appaṭibhāno nisīdi.

Even an insentient post would shake and rock and tremble were I to take it on in debate. How much more then a human being!’ But sweat is pouring from your forehead; it’s soaked through your robe and drips on the ground. While I now have no sweat on my body.” So the Buddha revealed his golden body to the assembly. When this was said, Saccaka sat silent, dismayed, shoulders drooping, downcast, depressed, with nothing to say.

Atha kho dummukho licchaviputto saccakaṁ nigaṇṭhaputtaṁ tuṇhībhūtaṁ maṅkubhūtaṁ pattakkhandhaṁ adhomukhaṁ pajjhāyantaṁ appaṭibhānaṁ viditvā bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:
“upamā maṁ, bhagavā, paṭibhātī”ti.
“Paṭibhātu taṁ, dummukhā”ti bhagavā avoca.
“Seyyathāpi, bhante, gāmassa vā nigamassa vā avidūre pokkharaṇī.
Tatrāssa kakkaṭako.
Atha kho, bhante, sambahulā kumārakā vā kumārikā vā tamhā gāmā vā nigamā vā nikkhamitvā yena sā pokkharaṇī tenupasaṅkameyyuṁ; upasaṅkamitvā taṁ pokkharaṇiṁ ogāhetvā taṁ kakkaṭakaṁ udakā uddharitvā thale patiṭṭhāpeyyuṁ.
Yaññadeva hi so, bhante, kakkaṭako aḷaṁ abhininnāmeyya taṁ tadeva te kumārakā vā kumārikā vā kaṭṭhena vā kathalena vā sañchindeyyuṁ sambhañjeyyuṁ sampalibhañjeyyuṁ.
Evañhi so, bhante, kakkaṭako sabbehi aḷehi sañchinnehi sambhaggehi sampalibhaggehi abhabbo taṁ pokkharaṇiṁ puna otarituṁ, seyyathāpi pubbe.

Knowing this, the Licchavi Dummukha said to the Buddha, “A simile strikes me, Blessed One.” “Then speak as you feel inspired,” said the Buddha. “Sir, suppose there was a lotus pond not far from a town or village, and a crab lived there. Then several boys or girls would leave the town or village and go to the pond, where they’d pull out the crab and put it on solid ground. Whenever that crab extended a claw, those boys or girls would snap, crack, and break it off with a stick or a stone. And when that crab’s claws had all been snapped, cracked, and broken off it wouldn’t be able to return down into that lotus pond.

Evameva kho, bhante, yāni saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa visūkāyitāni visevitāni vipphanditāni tānipi sabbāni bhagavatā sañchinnāni sambhaggāni sampalibhaggāni;
abhabbo ca dāni, bhante, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto puna bhagavantaṁ upasaṅkamituṁ yadidaṁ vādādhippāyo”ti.

In the same way, sir, the Buddha has snapped, cracked, and broken off all Saccaka’s twists, ducks, and dodges. Now he can’t get near the Buddha again looking for a debate.”

Evaṁ vutte, saccako nigaṇṭhaputto dummukhaṁ licchaviputtaṁ etadavoca:
“āgamehi tvaṁ, dummukha, āgamehi tvaṁ, dummukha, (…) na mayaṁ tayā saddhiṁ mantema, idha mayaṁ bhotā gotamena saddhiṁ mantema.
Tiṭṭhatesā, bho gotama, amhākañceva aññesañca puthusamaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ vācā.
Vilāpaṁ vilapitaṁ maññe.
Kittāvatā ca nu kho bhoto gotamassa sāvako sāsanakaro hoti ovādapatikaro tiṇṇavicikiccho vigatakathaṅkatho vesārajjappatto aparappaccayo satthusāsane viharatī”ti?
“Idha, aggivessana, mama sāvako yaṁ kiñci rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, sabbaṁ rūpaṁ ‘netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passati;
yā kāci vedanā …pe…
yā kāci saññā …pe…
ye keci saṅkhārā …pe…

But Saccaka said to him, “Hold on, Dummukha, hold on! I wasn’t talking with you, I was talking with the worthy Gotama. Worthy Gotama, leave aside that statement I made—as did various other ascetics and brahmins— it was, like, just a bit of nonsense. How do you define a disciple of the worthy Gotama who follows instructions and responds to advice; who has gone beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, gained assurance, and is independent of others in the Teacher’s instructions?” “It’s when one of my disciples truly sees any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: all form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ They truly see any kind of feeling … perception … choices …

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