Cūḷasaccakasutta

sutta.stream

‹ Library

Majjhima Nikāya 35

The Shorter Discourse With Saccaka · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

Parallels & more translations on SuttaCentral

Glosses: Fluent · Literal · Off
Translation: Hide · Show

Tap any word for its dictionary entry.

this‘etaṁ minemama, I am thisesohamasmi, thiseso myme selfattā’”ti?
no“No indeedhidaṁ, worthybho Gotamagotama”.

‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?” “No, worthy Gotama.”

“What do you think, Aggivessana? Consider someone who resorts, draws near, and clings to suffering, regarding it thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self.’ Would they be able to completely understand suffering themselves, or live having wiped out suffering?” “How could they? No, worthy Gotama.” “What do you think, Aggivessana? This being so, aren’t you someone who resorts, draws near, and clings to suffering, regarding it thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?” “How could I not? Yes, worthy Gotama.”

just as“Seyyathāpi, Aggivessanaaggivessana, a personpuriso in need of heartwoodsāratthiko seeking heartwoodsāragavesī search for heartwoodsārapariyesanaṁ wanderingcaramāno sharptiṇhaṁ axekuṭhāriṁ having takenādāya forestvanaṁ would enterpaviseyya.
heSo theretattha would seepasseyya bigmahantaṁ banana trunkkadalikkhandhaṁ straightujuṁ youngnavaṁ grown unskewedakukkukajātaṁ.
itTamenaṁ at the basemūle would cutchindeyya, at the basemūle having cutchetvā at the topagge would cutchindeyya, at the topagge having cutchetvā coiled sheathspattavaṭṭiṁ would unrollvinibbhujeyya.
heSo theretattha coiled sheathspattavaṭṭiṁ unrollingvinibbhujanto even sapwoodpheggumpi would not findnādhigaccheyya, how much lesskuto heartwood?sāraṁ?
in the same wayEvameva indeedkho youtvaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, by memayā in your ownsakasmiṁ doctrinevāde pursuedsamanuyuñjiyamāno pressedsamanugāhiyamāno grilledsamanubhāsiyamāno vacuousritto hollowtuccho mistakenaparaddho.
statedBhāsitā indeedkho butpana by youte thisesā, Aggivessanaaggivessana, in Vesālīvesāliyaṁ in the assemblyparisati speechvācā:
I do not‘nāhaṁ anytaṁ seepassāmi asceticsamaṇaṁ orvā brahminbrāhmaṇaṁ orvā, leader of an ordersaṅghiṁ leader of a communitygaṇiṁ tutor of a communitygaṇācariyaṁ, evenapi a perfected onearahantaṁ a fully awakened Buddhasammāsambuddhaṁ claimingpaṭijānamānaṁ, whoyo by memayā in debatevādena debatevādaṁ taken onsamāraddho notna would shakesaṅkampeyya notna would rocksampakampeyya notna would tremblesampavedheyya, of whomyassa notna from the armpitskacchehi sweatsedā would be releasedmucceyyuṁ.

“Suppose, Aggivessana, there was a person in need of heartwood. Wandering in search of heartwood, they’d take a sharp axe and enter a forest. There they’d see a big banana trunk, straight and young and grown unskewed. They’d cut it down at the base, cut off the top, and unroll the coiled sheaths. But they wouldn’t even find sapwood, much less heartwood. In the same way, when pursued, pressed, and grilled by me on your own doctrine, you turn out to be vacuous, hollow, and mistaken. But it was you who stated before the assembly of Vesālī: ‘I don’t see any ascetic or brahmin who would not shake and rock and tremble, sweating from the armpits, were I to take them on in debate—not a leader of an order or a community, or the tutor of a community, and not even one who claims to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha.

postThūṇaṁ if Icepāhaṁ insentientacetanaṁ in debatevādena debatevādaṁ I would take onsamārabheyyaṁ it toosāpi by memayā in debatevādena debatevādaṁ taken onsamāraddhā would shakesaṅkampeyya would rocksampakampeyya would tremblesampavedheyya.
howKo thenpana speechvādo human beingmanussabhūtassā’ti?
yourTuyhaṁ indeedkho butpana, Aggivessanaaggivessana, someappekaccāni sweat dropssedaphusitāni from foreheadnalāṭā releasedmuttāni, upper robeuttarāsaṅgaṁ soaked throughvinibhinditvā on groundbhūmiyaṁ standingpatiṭṭhitāni.
myMayhaṁ indeedkho butpana, Aggivessanaaggivessana, there is notnatthi nowetarahi in bodykāyasmiṁ sweatsedo”ti.
thusIti the Blessed Onebhagavā in thattasmiṁ assemblyparisati golden coloredsuvaṇṇavaṇṇaṁ bodykāyaṁ revealedvivari.
thusEvaṁ when saidvutte, Saccakasaccako Nigaṇṭha’s sonnigaṇṭhaputto silenttuṇhībhūto dismayedmaṅkubhūto shoulders droopingpattakkhandho downcastadhomukho depressedpajjhāyanto with nothing to sayappaṭibhāno satnisīdi.

Even an insentient post would shake and rock and tremble were I to take it on in debate. How much more then a human being!’ But sweat is pouring from your forehead; it’s soaked through your robe and drips on the ground. While I now have no sweat on my body.” So the Buddha revealed his golden body to the assembly. When this was said, Saccaka sat silent, dismayed, shoulders drooping, downcast, depressed, with nothing to say.

thenAtha indeedkho Dummukhadummukho the Licchavi sonlicchaviputto Saccakasaccakaṁ the Nigaṇṭha sonnigaṇṭhaputtaṁ having become silenttuṇhībhūtaṁ having become dismayedmaṅkubhūtaṁ with drooping shoulderspattakkhandhaṁ with face downadhomukhaṁ broodingpajjhāyantaṁ at a loss for wordsappaṭibhānaṁ having knownviditvā the Blessed Onebhagavantaṁ said thisetadavoca:
a simile“upamā to memaṁ, Blessed Onebhagavā, it occurspaṭibhātī”ti.
let it occur“Paṭibhātu to youtaṁ, Dummukhadummukhā”ti the Blessed Onebhagavā saidavoca.
suppose“Seyyathāpi, sirbhante, of a villagegāmassa orvā of a townnigamassa orvā not far fromavidūre a lotus pondpokkharaṇī.
there wasTatrāssa a crabkakkaṭako.
thenAtha indeedkho, sirbhante, severalsambahulā boyskumārakā orvā girlskumārikā orvā from thattamhā villagegāmā orvā townnigamā orvā having departednikkhamitvā towards whichyena thatsā lotus pondpokkharaṇī would approach ittenupasaṅkameyyuṁ; having approachedupasaṅkamitvā thattaṁ lotus pondpokkharaṇiṁ having enteredogāhetvā thattaṁ crabkakkaṭakaṁ from the waterudakā having pulled outuddharitvā on solid groundthale would make standpatiṭṭhāpeyyuṁ.
whateverYaññadeva indeedhi thatso, sirbhante, crabkakkaṭako a clawaḷaṁ would extendabhininnāmeyya thattaṁ that very onetadeva thosete boyskumārakā orvā girlskumārikā orvā with a stickkaṭṭhena orvā with a stonekathalena orvā would snap offsañchindeyyuṁ would cracksambhañjeyyuṁ would break offsampalibhañjeyyuṁ.
and thusEvañhi thatso, sirbhante, crabkakkaṭako by allsabbehi clawsaḷehi snapped offsañchinnehi crackedsambhaggehi broken offsampalibhaggehi would be unableabhabbo thattaṁ lotus pondpokkharaṇiṁ againpuna to descend intootarituṁ, just asseyyathāpi beforepubbe.

Knowing this, the Licchavi Dummukha said to the Buddha, “A simile strikes me, Blessed One.” “Then speak as you feel inspired,” said the Buddha. “Sir, suppose there was a lotus pond not far from a town or village, and a crab lived there. Then several boys or girls would leave the town or village and go to the pond, where they’d pull out the crab and put it on solid ground. Whenever that crab extended a claw, those boys or girls would snap, crack, and break it off with a stick or a stone. And when that crab’s claws had all been snapped, cracked, and broken off it wouldn’t be able to return down into that lotus pond.

just soEvameva indeedkho, sirbhante, whicheveryāni of Saccakasaccakassa the Jain sonnigaṇṭhaputtassa twistsvisūkāyitāni ducksvisevitāni dodgesvipphanditāni all these tootānipi allsabbāni by the Buddhabhagavatā snappedsañchinnāni crackedsambhaggāni broken offsampalibhaggāni;
unableabhabbo andca nowdāni, sirbhante, Saccakasaccako the Jain sonnigaṇṭhaputto againpuna the Buddhabhagavantaṁ to approachupasaṅkamituṁ that isyadidaṁ looking for a debatevādādhippāyo”ti.

In the same way, sir, the Buddha has snapped, cracked, and broken off all Saccaka’s twists, ducks, and dodges. Now he can’t get near the Buddha again looking for a debate.”

thusEvaṁ when this was saidvutte, Saccakasaccako the Nigaṇṭha's sonnigaṇṭhaputto Dummukhadummukhaṁ the Licchavi's sonlicchaviputtaṁ said this to himetadavoca:
wait“āgamehi youtvaṁ, Dummukhadummukha, waitāgamehi youtvaṁ, Dummukhadummukha, (…)(…) notna wemayaṁ with youtayā withsaddhiṁ we discussmantema, hereidha wemayaṁ with the worthybhotā Gotamagotamena withsaddhiṁ we discussmantema.
leave aside thisTiṭṭhatesā, worthybho Gotamagotama, of us andamhākañceva of others andaññesañca of various ascetics and brahminsputhusamaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ statementvācā.
nonsenseVilāpaṁ spokenvilapitaṁ I thinkmaññe.
to what extentKittāvatā andca thennu indeedkho of the worthybhoto Gotamagotamassa disciplesāvako following instructionssāsanakaro ishoti responding to adviceovādapatikaro gone beyond doubttiṇṇavicikiccho got rid of indecisionvigatakathaṅkatho gained assurancevesārajjappatto independent of othersaparappaccayo in the Teacher's instructionssatthusāsane dwellsviharatī”ti?
here“Idha, Aggivessanaaggivessana, mymama disciplesāvako whateveryaṁ anykiñci formrūpaṁ past future or presentatītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ internalajjhattaṁ orvā externalbahiddhā orvā solidoḷārikaṁ orvā subtlesukhumaṁ orvā inferiorhīnaṁ orvā superiorpaṇītaṁ orvā whateveryaṁ fardūre nearsantike orvā, allsabbaṁ formrūpaṁ this is not‘netaṁ minemama, I am not thisnesohamasmi, notna this is mymeso selfattā’ti thus thisevametaṁ as it really isyathābhūtaṁ with right understandingsammappaññāya seespassati;
whateveryā anykāci feelingvedanā …pe……pe…
whateveryā anykāci perceptionsaññā …pe……pe…
whateverye anykeci choicessaṅkhārā …pe……pe…

But Saccaka said to him, “Hold on, Dummukha, hold on! I wasn’t talking with you, I was talking with the worthy Gotama. Worthy Gotama, leave aside that statement I made—as did various other ascetics and brahmins— it was, like, just a bit of nonsense. How do you define a disciple of the worthy Gotama who follows instructions and responds to advice; who has gone beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, gained assurance, and is independent of others in the Teacher’s instructions?” “It’s when one of my disciples truly sees any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: all form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ They truly see any kind of feeling … perception … choices …

Lite mode — plain HTML for e-readers and old browsers. Full version