Cūḷasaccakasutta

Majjhima Nikāya 35

The Shorter Discourse With Saccaka · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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thusEvaṁ by meme heardsutaṁ—
oneekaṁ timesamayaṁ the Buddhabhagavā near Vesālīvesāliyaṁ was stayingviharati at the Great Woodmahāvane in the hall with the peaked roofkūṭāgārasālāyaṁ.

So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Vesālī, at the Great Wood, in the hall with the peaked roof.

by thatTena indeedkho nowpana at the timesamayena Saccakasaccako son of Jain parentsnigaṇṭhaputto in Vesālīvesāliyaṁ was stayingpaṭivasati a controversialistbhassappavādako pretending to be astutepaṇḍitavādo deemed holysādhusammato by many people.bahujanassa.
heSo in Vesālīvesāliyaṁ in a crowdparisati thusevaṁ speechvācaṁ speaks:bhāsati:
I do not“nāhaṁ that onetaṁ I seepassāmi asceticsamaṇaṁ orvā brahminbrāhmaṇaṁ or,vā, a leader of an ordersaṅghiṁ a community leadergaṇiṁ tutor of a community,gaṇācariyaṁ, not evenapi a perfected onearahantaṁ a fully awakened Buddhasammāsambuddhaṁ claimingpaṭijānamānaṁ, whoyo by memayā in debatevādena debatevādaṁ taken onsamāraddho notna would shakesaṅkampeyya notna would rocksampakampeyya notna would tremble,sampavedheyya, whoseyassa notna from the armpitskacchehi sweatsedā would be released.mucceyyuṁ.
a postThūṇaṁ if Icepāhaṁ insentientacetanaṁ in debatevādena debatevādaṁ I would take onsamārabheyyaṁ, it toosāpi by memayā in debatevādena debatevādaṁ taken onsamāraddhā would shakesaṅkampeyya would rocksampakampeyya would tremble.sampavedheyya.
howKo nowpana talkvādo of a human being?manussabhūtassā”ti?

Now at that time Saccaka, the son of Jain parents, was staying in Vesālī. He was a controversialist who pretended to be astute and was deemed holy by many people. He was telling a crowd in Vesālī, “I don’t see any ascetic or brahmin who would not shake and rock and tremble, sweating from the armpits, were I to take them on in debate—not a leader of an order or a community, or the tutor of a community, and not even one who claims to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha. Even an insentient post would shake and rock and tremble were I to take it on in debate. How much more then a human being!”

thenAtha indeedkho venerableāyasmā Assajiassaji in the morningpubbaṇhasamayaṁ having robed upnivāsetvā taking bowl and robepattacīvaramādāya Vesālīvesāliṁ for almspiṇḍāya enteredpāvisi.
sawAddasā indeedkho Saccakasaccako son of the Nigaṇṭhanigaṇṭhaputto in Vesālīvesāliyaṁ for a walkjaṅghāvihāraṁ walking back and forthanucaṅkamamāno wandering aboutanuvicaramāno venerableāyasmantaṁ Assajiassajiṁ from a distancedūratova comingāgacchantaṁ.
having seenDisvāna where venerableyenāyasmā Assajiassaji there approachedtenupasaṅkami; having approachedupasaṅkamitvā with venerableāyasmatā Assajiassajinā togethersaddhiṁ exchanged greetingssammodi.
greetingSammodanīyaṁ talkkathaṁ politesāraṇīyaṁ having exchangedvītisāretvā to one sideekamantaṁ stoodaṭṭhāsi. to one sideEkamantaṁ standingṭhito indeedkho Saccakasaccako son of the Nigaṇṭhanigaṇṭhaputto venerableāyasmantaṁ Assajiassajiṁ said thisetadavoca:

Then Venerable Assaji robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, entered Vesālī for alms. As Saccaka was going for a walk he saw Assaji coming off in the distance. He approached him and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, Saccaka stood to one side and said to Assaji,

how“kathaṁ thenpana, worthybho Assajiassaji, the asceticsamaṇo Gotamagotamo disciplessāvake guidesvineti, of what kindkathaṁbhāgā andca thenpana of the asceticsamaṇassa of Gotamagotamassa among the disciplessāvakesu instructionanusāsanī generallybahulā proceedspavattatī”ti?
thus“Evaṁ indeedkho, Aggivessanaaggivessana, the Blessed Onebhagavā disciplessāvake guidesvineti, of such kindevaṁbhāgā andca thenpana of the Blessed Onebhagavato among the disciplessāvakesu instructionanusāsanī generallybahulā proceedspavattati:
form‘rūpaṁ, monksbhikkhave, impermanentaniccaṁ, feelingvedanā impermanentaniccā, perceptionsaññā impermanentaniccā, choicessaṅkhārā impermanentaniccā, consciousnessviññāṇaṁ impermanentaniccaṁ.
formRūpaṁ, monksbhikkhave, not-selfanattā, feelingvedanā not-selfanattā, perceptionsaññā not-selfanattā, choicessaṅkhārā not-selfanattā, consciousnessviññāṇaṁ not-selfanattā.
allSabbe conditionssaṅkhārā impermanentaniccā, allsabbe thingsdhammā not-selfanattā’ti.
thusEvaṁ indeedkho, Aggivessanaaggivessana, the Blessed Onebhagavā disciplessāvake guidesvineti, of such kindevaṁbhāgā andca thenpana of the Blessed Onebhagavato among the disciplessāvakesu instructionanusāsanī generallybahulā proceedspavattatī”ti.
ill-heard“Dussutaṁ trulyvata, worthybho Assajiassaji, we heardassumha thatye wemayaṁ of such doctrineevaṁvādiṁ the asceticsamaṇaṁ Gotamagotamaṁ we heardassumha.

“Worthy Assaji, how does the ascetic Gotama guide his disciples? And on what topics does instruction to his disciples generally proceed?” “Aggivessana, this is how the Buddha guides his disciples, and his instructions to disciples generally proceed on these topics: ‘Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are impermanent. Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are not-self. All conditions are impermanent. All things are not-self.’ This is how the Buddha guides his disciples, and how instruction to his disciples generally proceeds.” “It’s sad to hear, worthy Assaji, that the ascetic Gotama has such a doctrine.

hopefullyAppeva indeednāma wemayaṁ sometimeskadāci at any timekarahaci with himtena with the worthy onebhotā with Gotamagotamena togethersaddhiṁ we would meetsamāgaccheyyāma, hopefullyappeva indeednāma there would besiyā some kind ofkocideva discussionkathāsallāpo, hopefullyappeva indeednāma from himtasmā from harmfulpāpakā from misconceptiondiṭṭhigatā we would dissuadeviveceyyāmā”ti.

Hopefully, some time or other I’ll get to meet the worthy Gotama, and we can have a discussion. And hopefully I can dissuade him from this harmful misconception.”

at thatTena indeedkho thenpana at the timesamayena about five hundredpañcamattāni Licchavislicchavisatāni at the town hallsanthāgāre sitting togethersannipatitāni arehonti on some businesskenacideva to be done.karaṇīyena.
thenAtha indeedkho Saccakasaccako son of a Nigaṇṭhanigaṇṭhaputto whereyena thosete Licchavislicchavī approached themtenupasaṅkami; having approachedupasaṅkamitvā thosete Licchavislicchavī said this:etadavoca:
come forth“abhikkamantu good sirsbhonto Licchavislicchavī, come forthabhikkamantu good sirsbhonto Licchavislicchavī, todayajja for meme with the asceticsamaṇena Gotamagotamena withsaddhiṁ a discussionkathāsallāpo will bebhavissati.
ifSace by meme the asceticsamaṇo Gotamagotamo sotathā will stand bypatiṭṭhissati asyathā andca by meme by a well-known discipleñātaññatarena disciplesāvakena Assajiassajinā namednāma mendicantbhikkhunā position statedpatiṭṭhitaṁ, just asseyyathāpi likenāma a strongbalavā manpuriso a fleecydīghalomikaṁ sheepeḷakaṁ by the fleecelomesu having grabbedgahetvā would dragākaḍḍheyya would drag to and froparikaḍḍheyya would drag round aboutsamparikaḍḍheyya;
just so Ievamevāhaṁ the asceticsamaṇaṁ Gotamagotamaṁ in debatevādena in debatevādaṁ will dragākaḍḍhissāmi will drag to and froparikaḍḍhissāmi will drag round about.samparikaḍḍhissāmi.
just asSeyyathāpi likenāma a strongbalavā brewer's workersoṇḍikākammakāro a largemahantaṁ brewer's sievesoṇḍikākiḷañjaṁ into a deepgambhīre lakeudakarahade having tossedpakkhipitvā by the cornerskaṇṇe having grabbedgahetvā would dragākaḍḍheyya would drag to and froparikaḍḍheyya would drag round aboutsamparikaḍḍheyya;
just so Ievamevāhaṁ the asceticsamaṇaṁ Gotamagotamaṁ in debatevādena in debatevādaṁ will dragākaḍḍhissāmi will drag to and froparikaḍḍhissāmi will drag round about.samparikaḍḍhissāmi.

Now at that time around five hundred Licchavis were sitting together at the town hall on some business. Then Saccaka went up to them and said, “Come forth, good Licchavīs, come forth! Today I am going to have a discussion with the ascetic Gotama. If he stands by the position stated to me by one of his well-known disciples—a mendicant named Assaji—I’ll take him on in debate and drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong man would grab a fleecy sheep and drag it to and fro and round about! Taking him on in debate, I’ll drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong brewer’s worker would toss a large brewer’s sieve into a deep lake, grab it by the corners, and drag it to and fro and round about!

just asSeyyathāpi indeednāma strongbalavā brewer's mixersoṇḍikādhutto strainervālaṁ by the cornerskaṇṇe having grabbedgahetvā would shake downodhuneyya would shake aboutniddhuneyya would give a beatingnipphoṭeyya;
so likewise Ievamevāhaṁ asceticsamaṇaṁ Gotamagotamaṁ with debatevādena in debatevādaṁ I will shake downodhunissāmi I will shake aboutniddhunissāmi I will give a beatingnipphoṭessāmi.
just asSeyyathāpi indeednāma elephantkuñjaro sixty-year-oldsaṭṭhihāyano deepgambhīraṁ lotus pondpokkharaṇiṁ having plungedogāhetvā hemp-washingsāṇadhovikaṁ indeednāma a gamekīḷitajātaṁ playskīḷati;
so likewise Ievamevāhaṁ asceticsamaṇaṁ Gotamagotamaṁ hemp-washingsāṇadhovikaṁ I thinkmaññe a gamekīḷitajātaṁ I will playkīḷissāmi.
come forthAbhikkamantu goodbhonto Licchavīslicchavī, come forthabhikkamantu goodbhonto Licchavīslicchavī, todayajja for meme with asceticsamaṇena Gotamagotamena togethersaddhiṁ discussionkathāsallāpo there will bebhavissatī”ti.

Taking him on in debate, I’ll shake him down and about, and give him a beating, like a strong brewer’s mixer would grab a strainer by the corners and shake it down and about, and give it a beating! I’ll play a game of hemp-washing with the ascetic Gotama, like a sixty-year-old elephant would plunge into a deep lotus pond and play a game of hemp-washing! Come forth, good Licchavīs, come forth! Today I am going to have a discussion with the ascetic Gotama.”

there someTatrekacce Licchavislicchavī thus saidevamāhaṁsu:
how?“kiṁ the asceticsamaṇo Gotamagotamo of Saccakasaccakassa of the Jain sonnigaṇṭhaputtassa doctrinevādaṁ will refuteāropessati, thenatha indeedkho Saccakasaccako the Jain sonnigaṇṭhaputto of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa doctrinevādaṁ will refute ... ?āropessatī”ti?
someEkacce Licchavislicchavī thus saidevamāhaṁsu:
how?“kiṁ heso beingbhavamāno Saccakasaccako the Jain sonnigaṇṭhaputto whoyo of the Blessed Onebhagavato doctrinevādaṁ will refuteāropessati, thenatha indeedkho the Blessed Onebhagavā of Saccakasaccakassa of the Jain sonnigaṇṭhaputtassa doctrinevādaṁ will refute ... ?āropessatī”ti?
thenAtha indeedkho Saccakasaccako the Jain sonnigaṇṭhaputto by five hundredpañcamattehi by Licchavislicchavisatehi escortedparivuto whereyena the Great Woodmahāvanaṁ the hall with the peaked roofkūṭāgārasālā there he approachedtenupasaṅkami.

At that, some of the Licchavis said, “How can the ascetic Gotama refute Saccaka’s doctrine, when it is Saccaka who will refute Gotama’s doctrine?” But some of the Licchavis said, “Who is Saccaka to refute the Buddha’s doctrine, when it is the Buddha who will refute Saccaka’s doctrine?” Then Saccaka, escorted by the five hundred Licchavis, went to the hall with the peaked roof in the Great Wood.

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