Mahāsaccakasutta

Majjhima Nikāya 36

The Longer Discourse With Saccaka · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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of thatTassa to memayhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, this occurredetadahosi:
not‘na indeedkho Āḷāraāḷāro Kālāmakālāmo thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ solelykevalaṁ faith·meresaddhāmattakena oneselfsayaṁ directly·knowabhiññā with own eyes·madesacchikatvā up to·reachupasampajja I liveviharāmīti declarespavedeti,
surelyaddhā Āḷāraāḷāro Kālāmakālāmo thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ knowingjānaṁ seeingpassaṁ he livesviharatī’ti.
thenAtha Ikhvāhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, whereyena Āḷāraāḷāro Kālāmakālāmo approached himtenupasaṅkamiṁ; having approachedupasaṅkamitvā Āḷāraāḷāraṁ Kālāmakālāmaṁ this I saidetadavocaṁ:
to what extent‘kittāvatā indeedno, friendāvuso Kālāmakālāma, thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ directly·knowabhiññā with own eyes·madesacchikatvā up to·reachupasampajja I liveviharāmīti you declaredpavedesī’ti?
thusEvaṁ when saidvutte, Aggivessanaaggivessana, Āḷāraāḷāro Kālāmakālāmo the dimension of nothingnessākiñcaññāyatanaṁ declaredpavedesi.
of thatTassa to memayhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, this occurredetadahosi:
not‘na indeedkho Āḷāra·onlyāḷārasseva of Kālāmakālāmassa there isatthi faithsaddhā, I·there ismayhampatthi faithsaddhā;
notna indeedkho Āḷāra·onlyāḷārasseva of Kālāmakālāmassa there isatthi energyvīriyaṁ, I·there ismayhampatthi energyvīriyaṁ;
notna indeedkho Āḷāra·onlyāḷārasseva of Kālāmakālāmassa there isatthi mindfulnesssati, I·there ismayhampatthi mindfulnesssati;
notna indeedkho Āḷāra·onlyāḷārasseva of Kālāmakālāmassa there isatthi immersionsamādhi, I·there ismayhampatthi immersionsamādhi;
notna indeedkho Āḷāra·onlyāḷārasseva of Kālāmakālāmassa there isatthi wisdompaññā, I·there ismayhampatthi wisdompaññā;

Then it occurred to me, ‘It is not solely by mere faith that Āḷāra Kālāma declares: “I realize this teaching with my own insight, and live having achieved it.” Surely he meditates knowing and seeing this teaching.’ So I approached Āḷāra Kālāma and said to him, ‘Reverend Kālāma, to what extent do you say you’ve realized this teaching with your own insight?’ When I said this, he declared the dimension of nothingness. Then it occurred to me, ‘It’s not just Āḷāra Kālāma who has faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom; I too have these things.

which·now + Iyannūnāhaṁ whichyaṁ teachingdhammaṁ Āḷāraāḷāro Kālāmakālāmo with his own insightsayaṁ higher·knowabhiññā with one's own eyes·dosacchikatvā up·together·goupasampajja I liveviharāmīti he sayspavedeti of thattassa teachingdhammassa with one's own eyes·doingsacchikiriyāya should I make an effortpadaheyyan’ti.
ISo indeedkho Iahaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, not·long + justnacirasseva quick + justkhippameva thattaṁ teachingdhammaṁ with my own insightsayaṁ higher·knowabhiññā with one's own eyes·dosacchikatvā up·together·goupasampajja I livedvihāsiṁ.

Why don’t I make an effort to realize the same teaching that Āḷāra Kālāma says he has realized with his own insight?’ I quickly realized that teaching with my own insight, and lived having achieved it.

thenAtha indeed + Ikhvāhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, whereyena Āḷāraāḷāro Kālāmakālāmo there + approachtenupasaṅkamiṁ; up·together·goupasaṅkamitvā Āḷāraāḷāraṁ Kālāmakālāmaṁ this + sayetadavocaṁ:
up to this point‘ettāvatā for usno, reverendāvuso Kālāmakālāma, thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ higher·knowabhiññā eye·donesacchikatvā up·reachupasampajja you declarepavedesī’ti?
up to this point‘Ettāvatā indeedkho Iahaṁ, reverendāvuso, thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ higher·knowabhiññā eye·donesacchikatvā up·reachupasampajja I declarepavedemī’ti.
I too‘Ahampi indeedkho, reverendāvuso, up to this pointettāvatā thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ higher·knowabhiññā eye·donesacchikatvā up·reachupasampajja I dwellviharāmī’ti.
gain for us‘Lābhā for usno, reverendāvuso, well·obtainedsuladdhaṁ for usno, reverendāvuso,
whoye wemayaṁ venerableāyasmantaṁ suchtādisaṁ together·spiritual companionsabrahmacāriṁ seepassāma.
thusIti which + Iyāhaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ higher·knowabhiññā eye·donesacchikatvā up·reachupasampajja I declarepavedemi thattaṁ youtvaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ higher·knowabhiññā eye·donesacchikatvā up·reachupasampajja you dwellviharasi;
whichyaṁ youtvaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ higher·knowabhiññā eye·donesacchikatvā up·reachupasampajja you dwellviharasi that Itamahaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ higher·knowabhiññā eye·donesacchikatvā up·reachupasampajja I declarepavedemi.

So I approached Āḷāra Kālāma and said to him, ‘Reverend Kālāma, is it up to this point that you realized this teaching with your own insight, and declare having achieved it?’ ‘I have, reverend.’ ‘I too have realized this teaching with my own insight up to this point, and live having achieved it.’ ‘We are fortunate, reverend, so very fortunate to see a venerable such as yourself as one of our spiritual companions! So the teaching that I’ve realized with my own insight, and declare having achieved it, you’ve realized with your own insight, and dwell having achieved it. The teaching that you’ve realized with your own insight, and dwell having achieved it, I’ve realized with my own insight, and declare having achieved it.

soIti which + Iyāhaṁ teachingdhammaṁ I knowjānāmi thattaṁ youtvaṁ teachingdhammaṁ you know;jānāsi; whichyaṁ youtvaṁ teachingdhammaṁ you knowjānāsi that Itamahaṁ teachingdhammaṁ I know.jānāmi.
soIti such asyādiso Iahaṁ suchtādiso you,tuvaṁ, such asyādiso youtuvaṁ suchtādiso I.ahaṁ.
comeEhi now,dāni, reverend,āvuso, both·indeedubhova beingsantā thisimaṁ communitygaṇaṁ we should lead together.'pariharāmā’ti.
soIti indeed,kho, Aggivessana,aggivessana, Āḷāraāḷāro Kālāmakālāmo tutorācariyo myme beingsamāno his ownattano pupilantevāsiṁ memaṁ beingsamānaṁ with himselfattanā same positionsamasamaṁ placed,ṭhapesi, with highuḷārāya andca memaṁ with praisepūjāya honored.pūjesi.
to himTassa to me,mayhaṁ, Aggivessana,aggivessana, this·wasetadahosi:
this‘nāyaṁ teachingdhammo to disillusionmentnibbidāya notna to dispassionvirāgāya notna to cessationnirodhāya notna to peaceupasamāya notna to insightabhiññāya notna to awakeningsambodhāya notna to extinguishmentnibbānāya leads,saṁvattati, as far as + onlyyāvadeva rebirth in the dimension of nothingness.'ākiñcaññāyatanūpapattiyā’ti.
thatSo indeedkho I,ahaṁ, Aggivessana,aggivessana, thattaṁ teachingdhammaṁ not·adequateanalaṅkaritvā from thattasmā teachingdhammā disappointednibbijja I left.apakkamiṁ.

So the teaching that I know, you know, and the teaching you know, I know. I am like you and you are like me. Come now, reverend! We should both lead this community together.’ And that is how my tutor Āḷāra Kālāma placed me, his pupil, on the same position as him, and honored me with high praise. Then it occurred to me, ‘This teaching doesn’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. It only leads as far as rebirth in the dimension of nothingness.’ Realizing that this teaching was inadequate, I left disappointed.

thatSo indeedkho Iahaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, what·skillful·seekingkiṅkusalagavesī supremeanuttaraṁ peace·sublime·statesantivarapadaṁ seekingpariyesamāno whereyena Uddakaudako Rāma·sonrāmaputto him·approachedtenupasaṅkamiṁ; having approachedupasaṅkamitvā Uddakaudakaṁ Rāma·sonrāmaputtaṁ this·saidetadavocaṁ:
I wish‘icchāmahaṁ, reverendāvuso, in thisimasmiṁ teaching·trainingdhammavinaye spiritual·lifebrahmacariyaṁ to leadcaritun’ti.
thusEvaṁ when this was saidvutte, Aggivessanaaggivessana, Uddakaudako Rāma·sonrāmaputto to memaṁ this·saidetadavoca:
stay, venerable‘viharatāyasmā,
suchtādiso thisayaṁ teachingdhammo whereyattha a sensible personviññū personpuriso long + justnacirasseva ownsakaṁ denominationācariyakaṁ oneselfsayaṁ with direct insightabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having achievedupasampajja should livevihareyyā’ti.
thatSo indeedkho Iahaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, long + justnacirasseva quickly + justkhippameva thattaṁ teachingdhammaṁ learnedpariyāpuṇiṁ.
thatSo indeedkho Iahaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, to that extent + merelytāvatakeneva lip-recital·as far asoṭṭhapahatamattena verbal repetition·as far aslapitalāpanamattena knowledge·doctrine + andñāṇavādañca I spokevadāmi elder doctrine + andtheravādañca, I know‘jānāmi I seepassāmī’ti andca I claimedpaṭijānāmi, I myself as wellahañceva othersaññe andca.
of thatTassa of memayhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, this·wasetadahosi:
not‘na indeedkho Rāmarāmo thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ solelykevalaṁ faith·meresaddhāmattakena oneselfsayaṁ with direct insightabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having achievedupasampajja I liveviharāmīti declaredpavedesi.
surelyAddhā Rāmarāmo thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ knowingjānaṁ seeingpassaṁ meditatedvihāsī’ti.

I set out to discover what is skillful, seeking the supreme state of sublime peace. I approached Uddaka son of Rāma and said to him, ‘Reverend, I wish to lead the spiritual life in this teaching and training.’ Uddaka replied, ‘Stay, venerable. This teaching is such that a sensible person can soon realize their own denomination with their own insight and live having achieved it.’ I quickly memorized that teaching. As far as lip-recital and verbal repetition went, I spoke the doctrine of knowledge, the elder doctrine. I claimed to know and see, and so did others. Then it occurred to me, ‘It is not solely by mere faith that Rāma declared: “I realize this teaching with my own insight, and live having achieved it.” Surely he meditated knowing and seeing this teaching.’

thenAtha I indeedkhvāhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, whereyena Uddakaudako Rāma·sonrāmaputto I approached him theretenupasaṅkamiṁ; having approachedupasaṅkamitvā Uddakaudakaṁ Rāma·sonrāmaputtaṁ I said this to himetadavocaṁ:
to what extent‘kittāvatā indeedno reverendāvuso Rāmarāmo thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ with own insightsayaṁ having knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having attainedupasampajja I live' thusviharāmīti declared'?pavedesī’ti?
thusEvaṁ when saidvutte, Aggivessanaaggivessana, Uddakaudako Rāma·sonrāmaputto the dimension of neither perception nor non-perceptionnevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ declaredpavedesi.
of thatTassa of memayhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, it occurred to meetadahosi:
not‘na indeedkho of Rāma onlyrāmasseva there wasahosi faithsaddhā, for me too there ismayhampatthi faithsaddhā;
notna indeedkho of Rāma onlyrāmasseva there wasahosi energyvīriyaṁ, for me too there ismayhampatthi energyvīriyaṁ;
notna indeedkho of Rāma onlyrāmasseva there wasahosi mindfulnesssati, for me too there ismayhampatthi mindfulnesssati;
notna indeedkho of Rāma onlyrāmasseva there wasahosi immersionsamādhi, for me too there ismayhampatthi immersionsamādhi;
notna indeedkho of Rāma onlyrāmasseva there wasahosi wisdompaññā, for me too there ismayhampatthi wisdompaññā;
why don't Iyannūnāhaṁ whichyaṁ teachingdhammaṁ Rāmarāmo with own insightsayaṁ having knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having attainedupasampajja I live' thusviharāmīti declaredpavedesi of thattassa of the teachingdhammassa for realizationsacchikiriyāya make an effort''padaheyyan’ti.
thatSo indeedkho Iahaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, in no long timenacirasseva very quicklykhippameva thattaṁ teachingdhammaṁ with own insightsayaṁ having knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having attainedupasampajja livedvihāsiṁ.

So I approached Uddaka son of Rāma and said to him, ‘Reverend, to what extent did Rāma say he’d realized this teaching with his own insight?’ When I said this, Uddaka son of Rāma declared the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Then it occurred to me, ‘It’s not just Rāma who had faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom; I too have these things. Why don’t I make an effort to realize the same teaching that Rāma said he had realized with his own insight?’ I quickly realized that teaching with my own insight, and lived having achieved it.

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