Mahāsaccakasutta

Majjhima Nikāya 36

The Longer Discourse With Saccaka · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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thenAtha indeed·Ikhvāhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, whereyena Uddakaudako son of Rāmarāmaputto there·approachedtenupasaṅkamiṁ; up to·goupasaṅkamitvā Uddakaudakaṁ son of Rāmarāmaputtaṁ this·saidetadavocaṁ:
to this extent‘ettāvatā for usno reverendāvuso Rāmarāmo thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ himselfsayaṁ with higher knowledgeabhiññā with one's own eyes·madesacchikatvā up to·attainedupasampajja declared?pavedesī’ti?
to this extent‘Ettāvatā indeedkho reverendāvuso Rāmarāmo thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ himselfsayaṁ with higher knowledgeabhiññā with one's own eyes·madesacchikatvā up to·attainedupasampajja had declared.pavedesī’ti.
I too‘Ahampi indeed,kho, reverend,āvuso, to this extentettāvatā thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ himselfsayaṁ with higher knowledgeabhiññā with one's own eyes·madesacchikatvā up to·attainedupasampajja I dwell.viharāmī’ti.
gains‘Lābhā for us,no, reverend,āvuso, well·gainedsuladdhaṁ for us,no, reverend,āvuso,
whoye wemayaṁ venerableāyasmantaṁ suchtādisaṁ fellow·spiritual companionsabrahmacāriṁ we see.passāma.
thusIti whichyaṁ teachingdhammaṁ Rāmarāmo himselfsayaṁ with higher knowledgeabhiññā with one's own eyes·madesacchikatvā up to·attainedupasampajja declared,pavedesi, thattaṁ youtvaṁ teachingdhammaṁ himselfsayaṁ with higher knowledgeabhiññā with one's own eyes·madesacchikatvā up to·attainedupasampajja you dwell;viharasi; whichyaṁ youtvaṁ teachingdhammaṁ himselfsayaṁ with higher knowledgeabhiññā with one's own eyes·madesacchikatvā up to·attainedupasampajja you dwell,viharasi, thattaṁ teachingdhammaṁ Rāmarāmo himselfsayaṁ with higher knowledgeabhiññā with one's own eyes·madesacchikatvā up to·attainedupasampajja declared.pavedesi.

So I approached Uddaka son of Rāma and said to him, ‘Reverend, had Rāma realized this teaching with his own insight up to this point, and declared having achieved it?’ ‘He had, reverend.’ ‘I too have realized this teaching with my own insight up to this point, and live having achieved it.’ ‘We are fortunate, reverend, so very fortunate to see a venerable such as yourself as one of our spiritual companions! So the teaching that Rāma had realized with his own insight, and declared having achieved it, you’ve realized with your own insight, and dwell having achieved it. The teaching that you’ve realized with your own insight, and dwell having achieved it, Rāma had realized with his own insight, and declared having achieved it.

thusIti whichyaṁ teachingdhammaṁ Rāmarāmo directly·knowabhiññāsi thattaṁ youtvaṁ teachingdhammaṁ know;jānāsi; whichyaṁ youtvaṁ teachingdhammaṁ knowjānāsi thattaṁ teachingdhammaṁ Rāmarāmo directly·knowabhiññāsi.
thusIti likeyādiso Rāmarāmo wasahosi like thattādiso you;tuvaṁ; likeyādiso youtuvaṁ like thattādiso Rāmarāmo was.ahosi.
comeEhi now,dāni, reverend,āvuso, youtuvaṁ thisimaṁ communitygaṇaṁ should lead.'pariharā’ti.
thusIti indeed,kho, Aggivessana,aggivessana, Uddakaudako Rāma·sonrāmaputto together·spiritual-lifesabrahmacārī myme together·besamāno tutor·positionācariyaṭṭhāne andca memaṁ placed,ṭhapesi, highuḷārāya andca memaṁ with praisepūjāya honored.pūjesi.
thenTassa to me,mayhaṁ, Aggivessana,aggivessana, this·occuretadahosi:
'this‘nāyaṁ teachingdhammo to disillusionment,nibbidāya notna to dispassion,virāgāya notna to cessation,nirodhāya notna to peace,upasamāya notna to insight,abhiññāya notna to awakening,sambodhāya notna to extinguishment,nibbānāya leads,saṁvattati, only as far asyāvadeva to rebirth in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.'nevasaññānāsaññāyatanūpapattiyā’ti.
thatSo indeedkho I,ahaṁ, Aggivessana,aggivessana, thattaṁ teachingdhammaṁ not·adequateanalaṅkaritvā from thattasmā teachingdhammā disappointed,nibbijja away·goapakkamiṁ.

So the teaching that Rāma directly knew, you know, and the teaching you know, Rāma directly knew. Rāma was like you and you are like Rāma. Come now, reverend! You should lead this community.’ And that is how my spiritual companion Uddaka son of Rāma placed me in the position of a tutor and honored me with high praise. Then it occurred to me, ‘This teaching doesn’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. It only leads as far as rebirth in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.’ Realizing that this teaching was inadequate, I left disappointed.

thatSo indeedkho Iahaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, seeking what is skillfulkiṅkusalagavesī supremeanuttaraṁ peace·excellentsantivarapadaṁ seekingpariyesamāno in the Magadhan landsmagadhesu stage by stageanupubbena wanderingcārikaṁ travelingcaramāno whereyena Uruvelāuruvelā the town of Senāsenānigamo I arrived attadavasariṁ.
there I sawTatthaddasaṁ delightfulramaṇīyaṁ parkbhūmibhāgaṁ, lovelypāsādikañca grovevanasaṇḍaṁ, rivernadiñca flowingsandantiṁ cleansetakaṁ good·fordsupatitthaṁ charmingramaṇīyaṁ, nearbysamantā andca village to resort to for almsgocaragāmaṁ.
to meTassa to memayhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, this occurredetadahosi:
delightful‘ramaṇīyo trulyvata sirbho parkbhūmibhāgo, lovelypāsādiko andca grovevanasaṇḍo, rivernadī andca flowssandati cleansetakā good·fordsupatitthā charmingramaṇīyā, nearbysamantā andca village to resort to for almsgocaragāmo.
enoughAlaṁ truly thisvatidaṁ for a gentlemankulaputtassa wanting to strivepadhānatthikassa for strivingpadhānāyā’ti.
thatSo indeedkho Iahaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, right theretattheva I sat downnisīdiṁ
this is enough‘alamidaṁ for strivingpadhānāyā’ti.

I set out to discover what is skillful, seeking the supreme state of sublime peace. Traveling stage by stage in the Magadhan lands, I arrived at the town of Senā in Uruvelā. There I saw a delightful park, a lovely grove with a flowing river that was clean and charming, with smooth banks. And nearby was a village to resort to for alms. Then it occurred to me, ‘This park is truly delightful, a lovely grove with a flowing river that’s clean and charming, with smooth banks. And nearby there’s a village to resort to for alms. This is good enough for striving for a gentleman wanting to strive.’ So I sat down right there, thinking: ‘This is good enough for striving.’

and then theseApissumaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, threetisso similesupamā occurredpaṭibhaṁsu not·wonderfulanacchariyā in the pastpubbe not heard beforeassutapubbā.
supposeSeyyathāpi, Aggivessanaaggivessana, greenallaṁ logkaṭṭhaṁ with·sapsasnehaṁ in waterudake lyingnikkhittaṁ.
thenAtha a personpuriso to·goāgaccheyya drill-stickuttarāraṇiṁ having takenādāya:
fire‘aggiṁ I will produceabhinibbattessāmi, heattejo I will make appearpātukarissāmī’ti.
thatTaṁ whatkiṁ do you thinkmaññasi, Aggivessanaaggivessana,
apiapi nunu thatso personpuriso thatamuṁ greenallaṁ logkaṭṭhaṁ sappysasnehaṁ, in waterudake lyingnikkhittaṁ, drill-stickuttarāraṇiṁ to·givenādāya against·drillingabhimanthento fireaggiṁ could produceabhinibbatteyya, heattejo could make appearpātukareyyā”ti?
no“No indeedhidaṁ, worthybho Gotamagotama”.
that“Taṁ of whatkissa causehetu”?
because“Aduñhi, worthybho Gotamagotama, greenallaṁ logkaṭṭhaṁ sappysasnehaṁ, and thattañca andpana in waterudake lyingnikkhittaṁ.
eventuallyYāvadeva andca andpana thatso personpuriso of wearinesskilamathassa of frustrationvighātassa a partakerbhāgī would beassā”ti.

And then these three similes, which were neither supernaturally inspired, nor learned before in the past, occurred to me. Suppose there was a green, sappy log, and it was lying in water. Then a person comes along with a drill-stick, thinking to light a fire and produce heat. What do you think, Aggivessana? By drilling the stick against that green, sappy log lying in water, could they light a fire and produce heat?” “No, worthy Gotama. Why is that? Because it’s a green, sappy log, and it’s lying in the water. That person will eventually get weary and frustrated.”

just so“Evameva indeedkho, Aggivessanaaggivessana, whoye forhi who·anykeci asceticssamaṇā orvā brahminsbrāhmaṇā orvā in bodykāyena and·justceva in mindcittena andca from sensual pleasureskāmehi not·withdrawnavūpakaṭṭhā they dwellviharanti, whichyo andca theirnesaṁ in sensual pleasureskāmesu desire for sensual pleasureskāmacchando sensual-pleasure·affectionkāmasneho sensual-pleasure·infatuationkāmamucchā sensual-pleasure·thirstkāmapipāsā passion for sensual pleasureskāmapariḷāho, thatso andca internallyajjhattaṁ notna well·give-upsuppahīno ishoti, notna well stilledsuppaṭippassaddho, due to exertionopakkamikā if·evencepi thosete mastersbhonto ascetic·brahminsamaṇabrāhmaṇā painfuldukkhā sharptibbā severekharā acutekaṭukā feelingsvedanā they feelvedayanti, not·capable·indeedabhabbāva theyte of knowledgeñāṇāya of visiondassanāya not·higheranuttarāya of awakeningsambodhāya.
notNo if·evencepi thosete mastersbhonto ascetic·brahminsamaṇabrāhmaṇā due to exertionopakkamikā painfuldukkhā sharptibbā severekharā acutekaṭukā feelingsvedanā they feelvedayanti, not·capable·indeedabhabbāva theyte of knowledgeñāṇāya of visiondassanāya not·higheranuttarāya of awakeningsambodhāya.
thisAyaṁ indeedkho to memaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, firstpaṭhamā exampleupamā back·appearpaṭibhāsi not·extraordinaryanacchariyā beforepubbe previously unheardassutapubbā.

“In the same way, there are ascetics and brahmins who don’t live withdrawn in body and mind from sensual pleasures. They haven’t internally given up or stilled desire, affection, infatuation, thirst, and passion for sensual pleasures. Regardless of whether or not they suffer painful, sharp, severe, acute feelings due to exertion, they are incapable of knowledge and vision, of supreme awakening. This was the first example that occurred to me.

another alsoAparāpi indeedkho memaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, seconddutiyā exampleupamā occurred topaṭibhāsi uninspiringanacchariyā beforepubbe never heard beforeassutapubbā.
supposeSeyyathāpi, Aggivessanaaggivessana, greenallaṁ logkaṭṭhaṁ sappysasnehaṁ, far fromārakā waterudakā on dry landthale lyingnikkhittaṁ.
thenAtha personpuriso would comeāgaccheyya upper·fire-stickuttarāraṇiṁ having takenādāya:
fire‘aggiṁ I will produceabhinibbattessāmi, heattejo I will make manifestpātukarissāmī’ti.
thatTaṁ whatkiṁ do you thinkmaññasi, Aggivessanaaggivessana,
thenapi is it thatnu thatso personpuriso thatamuṁ greenallaṁ logkaṭṭhaṁ sappysasnehaṁ, far fromārakā waterudakā on dry landthale lyingnikkhittaṁ, upper·fire-stickuttarāraṇiṁ having takenādāya forth·churningabhimanthento fireaggiṁ forth·out·produceabhinibbatteyya heattejo would make manifestpātukareyyā”ti?
no“No indeed thishidaṁ, worthybho Gotamagotama”.
that“Taṁ of whatkissa is the reasonhetu”?
for indeed that“Aduñhi, worthybho Gotamagotama, greenallaṁ logkaṭṭhaṁ sappysasnehaṁ, even thoughkiñcāpi far fromārakā waterudakā on dry landthale lyingnikkhittaṁ.
as long + justYāvadeva andca furtherpana thatso personpuriso of wearinesskilamathassa of frustrationvighātassa sharerbhāgī would beassā”ti.

Then a second example occurred to me. Suppose there was a green, sappy log, and it was lying on dry land far from the water. Then a person comes along with a drill-stick, thinking to light a fire and produce heat. What do you think, Aggivessana? By drilling the stick against that green, sappy log on dry land far from water, could they light a fire and produce heat?” “No, worthy Gotama. Why not? Because it’s still a green, sappy log, despite the fact that it’s lying on dry land far from water. That person will eventually get weary and frustrated.”

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