Mahāsaccakasutta

Majjhima Nikāya 36

The Longer Discourse With Saccaka · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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Atha khvāhaṁ, aggivessana, yena udako rāmaputto tenupasaṅkamiṁ; upasaṅkamitvā udakaṁ rāmaputtaṁ etadavocaṁ:
‘ettāvatā no āvuso rāmo imaṁ dhammaṁ sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja pavedesī’ti?
‘Ettāvatā kho āvuso rāmo imaṁ dhammaṁ sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja pavedesī’ti.
‘Ahampi kho, āvuso, ettāvatā imaṁ dhammaṁ sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja viharāmī’ti.
‘Lābhā no, āvuso, suladdhaṁ no, āvuso,
ye mayaṁ āyasmantaṁ tādisaṁ sabrahmacāriṁ passāma.
Iti yaṁ dhammaṁ rāmo sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja pavedesi, taṁ tvaṁ dhammaṁ sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja viharasi; yaṁ tvaṁ dhammaṁ sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja viharasi, taṁ dhammaṁ rāmo sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja pavedesi.

So I approached Uddaka son of Rāma and said to him, ‘Reverend, had Rāma realized this teaching with his own insight up to this point, and declared having achieved it?’ ‘He had, reverend.’ ‘I too have realized this teaching with my own insight up to this point, and live having achieved it.’ ‘We are fortunate, reverend, so very fortunate to see a venerable such as yourself as one of our spiritual companions! So the teaching that Rāma had realized with his own insight, and declared having achieved it, you’ve realized with your own insight, and dwell having achieved it. The teaching that you’ve realized with your own insight, and dwell having achieved it, Rāma had realized with his own insight, and declared having achieved it.

Iti yaṁ dhammaṁ rāmo abhiññāsi taṁ tvaṁ dhammaṁ jānāsi; yaṁ tvaṁ dhammaṁ jānāsi taṁ dhammaṁ rāmo abhiññāsi.
Iti yādiso rāmo ahosi tādiso tuvaṁ; yādiso tuvaṁ tādiso rāmo ahosi.
Ehi dāni, āvuso, tuvaṁ imaṁ gaṇaṁ pariharā’ti.
Iti kho, aggivessana, udako rāmaputto sabrahmacārī me samāno ācariyaṭṭhāne ca maṁ ṭhapesi, uḷārāya ca maṁ pūjāya pūjesi.
Tassa mayhaṁ, aggivessana, etadahosi:
‘nāyaṁ dhammo nibbidāya na virāgāya na nirodhāya na upasamāya na abhiññāya na sambodhāya na nibbānāya saṁvattati, yāvadeva nevasaññānāsaññāyatanūpapattiyā’ti.
So kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, taṁ dhammaṁ analaṅkaritvā tasmā dhammā nibbijja apakkamiṁ.

So the teaching that Rāma directly knew, you know, and the teaching you know, Rāma directly knew. Rāma was like you and you are like Rāma. Come now, reverend! You should lead this community.’ And that is how my spiritual companion Uddaka son of Rāma placed me in the position of a tutor and honored me with high praise. Then it occurred to me, ‘This teaching doesn’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. It only leads as far as rebirth in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.’ Realizing that this teaching was inadequate, I left disappointed.

So kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, kiṅkusalagavesī anuttaraṁ santivarapadaṁ pariyesamāno magadhesu anupubbena cārikaṁ caramāno yena uruvelā senānigamo tadavasariṁ.
Tatthaddasaṁ ramaṇīyaṁ bhūmibhāgaṁ, pāsādikañca vanasaṇḍaṁ, nadiñca sandantiṁ setakaṁ supatitthaṁ ramaṇīyaṁ, samantā ca gocaragāmaṁ.
Tassa mayhaṁ, aggivessana, etadahosi:
‘ramaṇīyo vata bho bhūmibhāgo, pāsādiko ca vanasaṇḍo, nadī ca sandati setakā supatitthā ramaṇīyā, samantā ca gocaragāmo.
Alaṁ vatidaṁ kulaputtassa padhānatthikassa padhānāyā’ti.
So kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, tattheva nisīdiṁ
‘alamidaṁ padhānāyā’ti.

I set out to discover what is skillful, seeking the supreme state of sublime peace. Traveling stage by stage in the Magadhan lands, I arrived at the town of Senā in Uruvelā. There I saw a delightful park, a lovely grove with a flowing river that was clean and charming, with smooth banks. And nearby was a village to resort to for alms. Then it occurred to me, ‘This park is truly delightful, a lovely grove with a flowing river that’s clean and charming, with smooth banks. And nearby there’s a village to resort to for alms. This is good enough for striving for a gentleman wanting to strive.’ So I sat down right there, thinking: ‘This is good enough for striving.’

Apissumaṁ, aggivessana, tisso upamā paṭibhaṁsu anacchariyā pubbe assutapubbā.
Seyyathāpi, aggivessana, allaṁ kaṭṭhaṁ sasnehaṁ udake nikkhittaṁ.
Atha puriso āgaccheyya uttarāraṇiṁ ādāya:
‘aggiṁ abhinibbattessāmi, tejo pātukarissāmī’ti.
Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,
api nu so puriso amuṁ allaṁ kaṭṭhaṁ sasnehaṁ, udake nikkhittaṁ, uttarāraṇiṁ ādāya abhimanthento aggiṁ abhinibbatteyya, tejo pātukareyyā”ti?
“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.
“Taṁ kissa hetu”?
“Aduñhi, bho gotama, allaṁ kaṭṭhaṁ sasnehaṁ, tañca pana udake nikkhittaṁ.
Yāvadeva ca pana so puriso kilamathassa vighātassa bhāgī assā”ti.

And then these three similes, which were neither supernaturally inspired, nor learned before in the past, occurred to me. Suppose there was a green, sappy log, and it was lying in water. Then a person comes along with a drill-stick, thinking to light a fire and produce heat. What do you think, Aggivessana? By drilling the stick against that green, sappy log lying in water, could they light a fire and produce heat?” “No, worthy Gotama. Why is that? Because it’s a green, sappy log, and it’s lying in the water. That person will eventually get weary and frustrated.”

“Evameva kho, aggivessana, ye hi keci samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā kāyena ceva cittena ca kāmehi avūpakaṭṭhā viharanti, yo ca nesaṁ kāmesu kāmacchando kāmasneho kāmamucchā kāmapipāsā kāmapariḷāho, so ca ajjhattaṁ na suppahīno hoti, na suppaṭippassaddho, opakkamikā cepi te bhonto samaṇabrāhmaṇā dukkhā tibbā kharā kaṭukā vedanā vedayanti, abhabbāva te ñāṇāya dassanāya anuttarāya sambodhāya.
No cepi te bhonto samaṇabrāhmaṇā opakkamikā dukkhā tibbā kharā kaṭukā vedanā vedayanti, abhabbāva te ñāṇāya dassanāya anuttarāya sambodhāya.
Ayaṁ kho maṁ, aggivessana, paṭhamā upamā paṭibhāsi anacchariyā pubbe assutapubbā.

“In the same way, there are ascetics and brahmins who don’t live withdrawn in body and mind from sensual pleasures. They haven’t internally given up or stilled desire, affection, infatuation, thirst, and passion for sensual pleasures. Regardless of whether or not they suffer painful, sharp, severe, acute feelings due to exertion, they are incapable of knowledge and vision, of supreme awakening. This was the first example that occurred to me.

Aparāpi kho maṁ, aggivessana, dutiyā upamā paṭibhāsi anacchariyā pubbe assutapubbā.
Seyyathāpi, aggivessana, allaṁ kaṭṭhaṁ sasnehaṁ, ārakā udakā thale nikkhittaṁ.
Atha puriso āgaccheyya uttarāraṇiṁ ādāya:
‘aggiṁ abhinibbattessāmi, tejo pātukarissāmī’ti.
Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, aggivessana,
api nu so puriso amuṁ allaṁ kaṭṭhaṁ sasnehaṁ, ārakā udakā thale nikkhittaṁ, uttarāraṇiṁ ādāya abhimanthento aggiṁ abhinibbatteyya tejo pātukareyyā”ti?
“No hidaṁ, bho gotama”.
“Taṁ kissa hetu”?
“Aduñhi, bho gotama, allaṁ kaṭṭhaṁ sasnehaṁ, kiñcāpi ārakā udakā thale nikkhittaṁ.
Yāvadeva ca pana so puriso kilamathassa vighātassa bhāgī assā”ti.

Then a second example occurred to me. Suppose there was a green, sappy log, and it was lying on dry land far from the water. Then a person comes along with a drill-stick, thinking to light a fire and produce heat. What do you think, Aggivessana? By drilling the stick against that green, sappy log on dry land far from water, could they light a fire and produce heat?” “No, worthy Gotama. Why not? Because it’s still a green, sappy log, despite the fact that it’s lying on dry land far from water. That person will eventually get weary and frustrated.”

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