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Majjhima Nikāya 36

Mahāsaccakasutta

The Longer Discourse With Saccaka · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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of thatTassa to memayhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, this occurredetadahosi:
not‘na indeedkho Āḷāraāḷāro Kālāmakālāmo thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ solelykevalaṁ by mere faithsaddhāmattakena oneselfsayaṁ having directly knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having attainedupasampajja I liveviharāmīti declarespavedeti,
surelyaddhā Āḷāraāḷāro Kālāmakālāmo thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ knowingjānaṁ seeingpassaṁ he livesviharatī’ti.
thenAtha Ikhvāhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, whereyena Āḷāraāḷāro Kālāmakālāmo approached himtenupasaṅkamiṁ; having approachedupasaṅkamitvā Āḷāraāḷāraṁ Kālāmakālāmaṁ this I saidetadavocaṁ:
to what extent‘kittāvatā indeedno, friendāvuso Kālāmakālāma, thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ having directly knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having attainedupasampajja I liveviharāmīti you declaredpavedesī’ti?
thusEvaṁ when saidvutte, Aggivessanaaggivessana, Āḷāraāḷāro Kālāmakālāmo the dimension of nothingnessākiñcaññāyatanaṁ declaredpavedesi.
of thatTassa to memayhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, this occurredetadahosi:
not‘na indeedkho only Āḷāra'sāḷārasseva of Kālāmakālāmassa there isatthi faithsaddhā, I too havemayhampatthi faithsaddhā;
notna indeedkho only Āḷāra'sāḷārasseva of Kālāmakālāmassa there isatthi energyvīriyaṁ, I too havemayhampatthi energyvīriyaṁ;
notna indeedkho only Āḷāra'sāḷārasseva of Kālāmakālāmassa there isatthi mindfulnesssati, I too havemayhampatthi mindfulnesssati;
notna indeedkho only Āḷāra'sāḷārasseva of Kālāmakālāmassa there isatthi immersionsamādhi, I too havemayhampatthi immersionsamādhi;
notna indeedkho only Āḷāra'sāḷārasseva of Kālāmakālāmassa there isatthi wisdompaññā, I too havemayhampatthi wisdompaññā;

Then it occurred to me, ‘It is not solely by mere faith that Āḷāra Kālāma declares: “I realize this teaching with my own insight, and live having achieved it.” Surely he meditates knowing and seeing this teaching.’ So I approached Āḷāra Kālāma and said to him, ‘Reverend Kālāma, to what extent do you say you’ve realized this teaching with your own insight?’ When I said this, he declared the dimension of nothingness. Then it occurred to me, ‘It’s not just Āḷāra Kālāma who has faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom; I too have these things.

why don't Iyannūnāhaṁ whichyaṁ teachingdhammaṁ Āḷāraāḷāro Kālāmakālāmo with his own insightsayaṁ having realizedabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having achievedupasampajja I liveviharāmīti he sayspavedeti of thattassa teachingdhammassa for the realizationsacchikiriyāya should I make an effortpadaheyyan’ti.
ISo indeedkho Iahaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, before longnacirasseva quicklykhippameva thattaṁ teachingdhammaṁ with my own insightsayaṁ having realizedabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having achievedupasampajja I livedvihāsiṁ.

Why don’t I make an effort to realize the same teaching that Āḷāra Kālāma says he has realized with his own insight?’ I quickly realized that teaching with my own insight, and lived having achieved it.

thenAtha indeed Ikhvāhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, whereyena Āḷāraāḷāro Kālāmakālāmo there I approachedtenupasaṅkamiṁ; having approachedupasaṅkamitvā Āḷāraāḷāraṁ Kālāmakālāmaṁ this I saidetadavocaṁ:
up to this point‘ettāvatā for usno, reverendāvuso Kālāmakālāma, thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ having knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having achievedupasampajja you declarepavedesī’ti?
up to this point‘Ettāvatā indeedkho Iahaṁ, reverendāvuso, thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ having knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having achievedupasampajja I declarepavedemī’ti.
I too‘Ahampi indeedkho, reverendāvuso, up to this pointettāvatā thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ having knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having achievedupasampajja I dwellviharāmī’ti.
gain for us‘Lābhā for usno, reverendāvuso, well obtainedsuladdhaṁ for usno, reverendāvuso,
whoye wemayaṁ venerableāyasmantaṁ suchtādisaṁ fellow spiritual companionsabrahmacāriṁ seepassāma.
thusIti which Iyāhaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ having knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having achievedupasampajja I declarepavedemi thattaṁ youtvaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ having knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having achievedupasampajja you dwellviharasi;
whichyaṁ youtvaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ having knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having achievedupasampajja you dwellviharasi that Itamahaṁ teachingdhammaṁ oneselfsayaṁ having knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having achievedupasampajja I declarepavedemi.

So I approached Āḷāra Kālāma and said to him, ‘Reverend Kālāma, is it up to this point that you realized this teaching with your own insight, and declare having achieved it?’ ‘I have, reverend.’ ‘I too have realized this teaching with my own insight up to this point, and live having achieved it.’ ‘We are fortunate, reverend, so very fortunate to see a venerable such as yourself as one of our spiritual companions! So the teaching that I’ve realized with my own insight, and declare having achieved it, you’ve realized with your own insight, and dwell having achieved it. The teaching that you’ve realized with your own insight, and dwell having achieved it, I’ve realized with my own insight, and declare having achieved it.

soIti which Iyāhaṁ teachingdhammaṁ I knowjānāmi thattaṁ youtvaṁ teachingdhammaṁ you know;jānāsi; whichyaṁ youtvaṁ teachingdhammaṁ you knowjānāsi that Itamahaṁ teachingdhammaṁ I know.jānāmi.
soIti such asyādiso Iahaṁ suchtādiso you,tuvaṁ, such asyādiso youtuvaṁ suchtādiso I.ahaṁ.
comeEhi now,dāni, reverend,āvuso, bothubhova beingsantā thisimaṁ communitygaṇaṁ we should lead together.'pariharāmā’ti.
soIti indeed,kho, Aggivessana,aggivessana, Āḷāraāḷāro Kālāmakālāmo tutorācariyo myme beingsamāno his ownattano pupilantevāsiṁ memaṁ beingsamānaṁ with himselfattanā same positionsamasamaṁ placed,ṭhapesi, with highuḷārāya andca memaṁ with praisepūjāya honored.pūjesi.
to himTassa to me,mayhaṁ, Aggivessana,aggivessana, this occurred:etadahosi:
this‘nāyaṁ teachingdhammo to disillusionmentnibbidāya notna to dispassionvirāgāya notna to cessationnirodhāya notna to peaceupasamāya notna to insightabhiññāya notna to awakeningsambodhāya notna to extinguishmentnibbānāya leads,saṁvattati, only as far asyāvadeva rebirth in the dimension of nothingness.'ākiñcaññāyatanūpapattiyā’ti.
thatSo indeedkho I,ahaṁ, Aggivessana,aggivessana, thattaṁ teachingdhammaṁ not having found adequateanalaṅkaritvā from thattasmā teachingdhammā disappointednibbijja I left.apakkamiṁ.

So the teaching that I know, you know, and the teaching you know, I know. I am like you and you are like me. Come now, reverend! We should both lead this community together.’ And that is how my tutor Āḷāra Kālāma placed me, his pupil, on the same position as him, and honored me with high praise. Then it occurred to me, ‘This teaching doesn’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. It only leads as far as rebirth in the dimension of nothingness.’ Realizing that this teaching was inadequate, I left disappointed.

thatSo indeedkho Iahaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, seeking what is skillfulkiṅkusalagavesī supremeanuttaraṁ state of sublime peacesantivarapadaṁ seekingpariyesamāno whereyena Uddakaudako son of Rāmarāmaputto I approached himtenupasaṅkamiṁ; having approachedupasaṅkamitvā Uddakaudakaṁ son of Rāmarāmaputtaṁ said thisetadavocaṁ:
I wish‘icchāmahaṁ, reverendāvuso, in thisimasmiṁ teaching and trainingdhammavinaye the spiritual lifebrahmacariyaṁ to leadcaritun’ti.
thusEvaṁ when this was saidvutte, Aggivessanaaggivessana, Uddakaudako son of Rāmarāmaputto to memaṁ said thisetadavoca:
stay, venerable‘viharatāyasmā,
suchtādiso thisayaṁ teachingdhammo whereyattha a sensible personviññū personpuriso soonnacirasseva ownsakaṁ denominationācariyakaṁ oneselfsayaṁ with direct insightabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having achievedupasampajja should livevihareyyā’ti.
thatSo indeedkho Iahaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, soonnacirasseva quicklykhippameva thattaṁ teachingdhammaṁ learnedpariyāpuṇiṁ.
thatSo indeedkho Iahaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, merely to that extenttāvatakeneva as far as lip-recitaloṭṭhapahatamattena as far as verbal repetitionlapitalāpanamattena the doctrine of knowledgeñāṇavādañca I spokevadāmi the elder doctrinetheravādañca, I know‘jānāmi I seepassāmī’ti andca I claimedpaṭijānāmi, I myself as wellahañceva othersaññe andca.
of thatTassa of memayhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, this occurredetadahosi:
not‘na indeedkho Rāmarāmo thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ solelykevalaṁ by mere faithsaddhāmattakena oneselfsayaṁ with direct insightabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having achievedupasampajja I liveviharāmīti declaredpavedesi.
surelyAddhā Rāmarāmo thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ knowingjānaṁ seeingpassaṁ meditatedvihāsī’ti.

I set out to discover what is skillful, seeking the supreme state of sublime peace. I approached Uddaka son of Rāma and said to him, ‘Reverend, I wish to lead the spiritual life in this teaching and training.’ Uddaka replied, ‘Stay, venerable. This teaching is such that a sensible person can soon realize their own denomination with their own insight and live having achieved it.’ I quickly memorized that teaching. As far as lip-recital and verbal repetition went, I spoke the doctrine of knowledge, the elder doctrine. I claimed to know and see, and so did others. Then it occurred to me, ‘It is not solely by mere faith that Rāma declared: “I realize this teaching with my own insight, and live having achieved it.” Surely he meditated knowing and seeing this teaching.’

thenAtha I indeedkhvāhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, whereyena Uddakaudako son of Rāmarāmaputto I approached him theretenupasaṅkamiṁ; having approachedupasaṅkamitvā Uddakaudakaṁ son of Rāmarāmaputtaṁ I said this to himetadavocaṁ:
to what extent‘kittāvatā indeedno reverendāvuso Rāmarāmo thisimaṁ teachingdhammaṁ with own insightsayaṁ having knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having attainedupasampajja I live' thusviharāmīti declared'?pavedesī’ti?
thusEvaṁ when saidvutte, Aggivessanaaggivessana, Uddakaudako son of Rāmarāmaputto the dimension of neither perception nor non-perceptionnevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ declaredpavedesi.
of thatTassa of memayhaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, it occurred to meetadahosi:
not‘na indeedkho of Rāma onlyrāmasseva there wasahosi faithsaddhā, for me too there ismayhampatthi faithsaddhā;
notna indeedkho of Rāma onlyrāmasseva there wasahosi energyvīriyaṁ, for me too there ismayhampatthi energyvīriyaṁ;
notna indeedkho of Rāma onlyrāmasseva there wasahosi mindfulnesssati, for me too there ismayhampatthi mindfulnesssati;
notna indeedkho of Rāma onlyrāmasseva there wasahosi immersionsamādhi, for me too there ismayhampatthi immersionsamādhi;
notna indeedkho of Rāma onlyrāmasseva there wasahosi wisdompaññā, for me too there ismayhampatthi wisdompaññā;
why don't Iyannūnāhaṁ whichyaṁ teachingdhammaṁ Rāmarāmo with own insightsayaṁ having knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having attainedupasampajja I live' thusviharāmīti declaredpavedesi of thattassa of the teachingdhammassa for realizationsacchikiriyāya make an effort''padaheyyan’ti.
thatSo indeedkho Iahaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, in no long timenacirasseva very quicklykhippameva thattaṁ teachingdhammaṁ with own insightsayaṁ having knownabhiññā having realizedsacchikatvā having attainedupasampajja livedvihāsiṁ.

So I approached Uddaka son of Rāma and said to him, ‘Reverend, to what extent did Rāma say he’d realized this teaching with his own insight?’ When I said this, Uddaka son of Rāma declared the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Then it occurred to me, ‘It’s not just Rāma who had faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom; I too have these things. Why don’t I make an effort to realize the same teaching that Rāma said he had realized with his own insight?’ I quickly realized that teaching with my own insight, and lived having achieved it.

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