Mahāsaccakasutta

Majjhima Nikāya 36

The Longer Discourse With Saccaka · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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thusEvaṁ by meme heard—sutaṁ—
oneekaṁ timesamayaṁ the Blessed Onebhagavā near Vesālīvesāliyaṁ is stayingviharati in the Great Woodmahāvane in the hall with the peaked roof.kūṭāgārasālāyaṁ.

So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Vesālī, at the Great Wood, in the hall with the peaked roof.

by thatTena indeedkho nowpana at the timesamayena the Buddhabhagavā in the morningpubbaṇhasamayaṁ properly dressedsunivattho ishoti having taken bowl and robepattacīvaramādāya Vesālīvesāliṁ for almspiṇḍāya wishing to enter.pavisitukāmo.

Now at that time in the morning the Buddha, being properly dressed, took his bowl and robe, wishing to enter Vesālī for alms.

thenAtha indeedkho Saccakasaccako son of Jain parentsnigaṇṭhaputto walking for exercisejaṅghāvihāraṁ walking back and forthanucaṅkamamāno wandering aboutanuvicaramāno whereyena Great Woodmahāvanaṁ hall with the peaked roofkūṭāgārasālā he approachedtenupasaṅkami.
sawAddasā indeedkho venerableāyasmā Ānandaānando Saccakasaccakaṁ son of Jain parentsnigaṇṭhaputtaṁ from afardūratova comingāgacchantaṁ.
having seenDisvāna the Blessed Onebhagavantaṁ said thisetadavoca:
this“ayaṁ, sirbhante, Saccakasaccako son of Jain parentsnigaṇṭhaputto is comingāgacchati controversialistbhassappavādako pretending to be astutepaṇḍitavādo deemed holysādhusammato by many peoplebahujanassa.
this oneEso indeedkho, sirbhante, wanting discreditavaṇṇakāmo of the Buddhabuddhassa, wanting discreditavaṇṇakāmo of the teachingdhammassa, wanting discreditavaṇṇakāmo of the Saṅghasaṅghassa.
pleaseSādhu, sirbhante, the Blessed Onebhagavā for a momentmuhuttaṁ let him sitnisīdatu sympathyanukampaṁ out ofupādāyā”ti.
satNisīdi the Blessed Onebhagavā spread outpaññatte on the seatāsane.
thenAtha indeedkho Saccakasaccako son of Jain parentsnigaṇṭhaputto whereyena the Blessed Onebhagavā he approachedtenupasaṅkami; having approachedupasaṅkamitvā with the Blessed Onebhagavatā togethersaddhiṁ exchanged greetingssammodi, greetingsammodanīyaṁ conversationkathaṁ politesāraṇīyaṁ having exchangedvītisāretvā to one sideekamantaṁ sat downnisīdi. to one sideEkamantaṁ seatednisinno indeedkho Saccakasaccako son of Jain parentsnigaṇṭhaputto to the Blessed Onebhagavantaṁ said thisetadavoca:

Then as Saccaka, the son of Jain parents, was going for a walk he approached the hall with the peaked roof in the Great Wood. Venerable Ānanda saw him coming off in the distance, and said to the Buddha, “Sir, Saccaka, the son of Jain parents, is coming. He’s a controversialist who pretends to be astute and is deemed holy by many people. He wants to discredit the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha. Please, sir, sit for an hour out of sympathy.” The Buddha sat down on the seat spread out. Then Saccaka went up to the Buddha, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side and said to the Buddha,

they are“Santi, sirbho Gotamagotama, someeke ascetics and brahminssamaṇabrāhmaṇā committed to the practice of developing physical endurancekāyabhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā they liveviharanti, notno development of the mindcittabhāvanaṁ.
they sufferPhusanti indeedhi theyte, sirbho Gotamagotama, physicalsārīrikaṁ painfuldukkhaṁ feelingvedanaṁ.
once it happenedBhūtapubbaṁ, sirbho Gotamagotama, by physicalsārīrikāya painfuldukkhāya by feelingvedanāya touchedphuṭṭhassa beingsato even the thighs will be paralyzedūrukkhambhopi indeednāma will bebhavissati, even the hearthadayampi indeednāma will burstphalissati, even hotuṇhampi bloodlohitaṁ from the mouthmukhato will gushuggamissati, even madnessummādampi will attainpāpuṇissati loss of mindcittakkhepaṁ.
of himTassa indeedkho thisetaṁ, sirbho Gotamagotama, subject to the bodykāyanvayaṁ mindcittaṁ ishoti, of the bodykāyassa by powervasena it goesvattati.
thatTaṁ of whatkissa causehetu?
because not developedAbhāvitattā of the mindcittassa.
they areSanti butpana, sirbho Gotamagotama, someeke ascetics and brahminssamaṇabrāhmaṇā committed to the practice of developing the mindcittabhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā they liveviharanti, notno development of physical endurancekāyabhāvanaṁ.
they sufferPhusanti indeedhi theyte, sirbho Gotamagotama, mentalcetasikaṁ painfuldukkhaṁ feelingvedanaṁ.
once it happenedBhūtapubbaṁ, sirbho Gotamagotama, by mentalcetasikāya painfuldukkhāya by feelingvedanāya touchedphuṭṭhassa beingsato even the thighs will be paralyzedūrukkhambhopi indeednāma will bebhavissati, even the hearthadayampi indeednāma will burstphalissati, even hotuṇhampi bloodlohitaṁ from the mouthmukhato will gushuggamissati, even madnessummādampi will attainpāpuṇissati loss of mindcittakkhepaṁ.

“Worthy Gotama, there are some ascetics and brahmins who live committed to the practice of developing physical endurance, without developing the mind. They suffer painful physical feelings. This happened to someone once. Their thighs became paralyzed, their heart burst, hot blood gushed from their mouth, and they went mad and lost their mind. Their mind was subject to the body, and the body had power over it. Why is that? Because their mind was not developed. There are some ascetics and brahmins who live committed to the practice of developing the mind, without developing physical endurance. They suffer painful mental feelings. This happened to someone once. Their thighs became paralyzed, their heart burst, hot blood gushed from their mouth, and they went mad and lost their mind.

of thatTassa indeedkho thiseso, sirbho Gotamagotama, following the mindcittanvayo bodykāyo ishoti, of the mindcittassa by powervasena proceedsvattati.
thatTaṁ of whatkissa is the reasonhetu?
from not developingAbhāvitattā of the bodykāyassa.
of thatTassa of memayhaṁ, sirbho Gotamagotama, thusevaṁ it occurshoti:
‘indeed‘addhā of the worthybhoto Gotama'sgotamassa disciplessāvakā committed to the practice of developing the mindcittabhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā dwellviharanti, notno developing the body’kāyabhāvanan’”ti.

Their body was subject to the mind, and the mind had power over it. Why is that? Because their physical endurance was not developed. It occurs to me that The worthy Gotama’s disciples must live committed to the practice of developing the mind, without developing physical endurance.”

what then“Kinti indeedpana by youte, Aggivessanaaggivessana, development of the bodykāyabhāvanā has been heard?sutā”ti?
that is to say—“Seyyathidaṁ—
Nandanando Vacchavaccho, Kisakiso Saṅkiccasaṅkicco, Makkhalimakkhali Gosāla—gosālo—
by theseetehi, sirbho Gotamagotama, naked asceticsacelakā of loose habitsmuttācārā licking their handshatthāpalekhanā not coming when callednaehibhaddantikā not stopping when callednatiṭṭhabhaddantikā notna brought to themabhihaṭaṁ notna prepared on their behalfuddissakataṁ notna an invitationnimantanaṁ they consent tosādiyanti,
theyte notna from a pot's mouthkumbhimukhā they receivepaṭiggaṇhanti notna from a bowl's mouthkaḷopimukhā they receivepaṭiggaṇhanti notna past a goateḷakamantaraṁ notna past a staffdaṇḍamantaraṁ notna past a pestlemusalamantaraṁ notna of twodvinnaṁ who are eatingbhuñjamānānaṁ notna from a pregnant womangabbhiniyā notna from a breastfeeding womanpāyamānāya notna from one consorting with a manpurisantaragatāya notna where food is collectedsaṅkittīsu notna whereyattha itsā a houndupaṭṭhito is waitinghoti notna whereyattha fliesmakkhikā buzzing in swarmssaṇḍasaṇḍacārinī, notna fishmacchaṁ notna meatmaṁsaṁ notna beersuraṁ notna winemerayaṁ notna fermented gruelthusodakaṁ they drink.pivanti.
TheyTe from one houseekāgārikā orvā arehonti one-mouthful menekālopikā, from two housesdvāgārikā orvā arehonti two-mouthful mendvālopikā ……pe… from seven housessattāgārikā orvā arehonti seven-mouthful men.sattālopikā.
Even with oneEkissāpi saucerdattiyā they sustain themselves,yāpenti, even with twodvīhipi saucersdattīhi they sustain themselvesyāpenti ……pe… even with sevensattahipi saucersdattīhi they sustain themselves.yāpenti.

“But Aggivessana, what have you heard about the development of physical endurance?” “Take, for example, Nanda Vaccha, Kisa Saṅkicca, and the bamboo-staffed ascetic Gosāla. They go naked, ignoring conventions. They lick their hands, and don’t come or wait when called. They don’t consent to food brought to them, or food prepared on their behalf, or an invitation for a meal. They don’t receive anything from a pot or bowl; or from someone who keeps sheep, or who has a weapon or a shovel in their home; or where a couple is eating; or where there is a woman who is pregnant, breastfeeding, or who lives with a man; or where there’s a hound waiting or flies buzzing. They accept no fish or meat or beer or wine, and drink no fermented gruel. They go to just one house for alms, taking just one mouthful, or two houses and two mouthfuls, up to seven houses and seven mouthfuls. They feed on one saucer a day, two saucers a day, up to seven saucers a day.

even once-dailyEkāhikampi foodāhāraṁ they eatāhārenti, even every second daydvīhikampi foodāhāraṁ they eatāhārenti and so on…pe… even once a weeksattāhikampi foodāhāraṁ they eatāhārenti. thusIti of such kindevarūpaṁ even once a fortnightaddhamāsikampi committed to the practice of eating food at set intervalspariyāyabhattabhojanānuyogamanuyuttā they liveviharantī”ti.

They eat once a day, once every second day, up to once a week, and so on, even up to once a fortnight. They live committed to the practice of eating food at set intervals.”

what“Kiṁ butpana for youte, Aggivessanaaggivessana, on so littletāvatakeneva do they get byyāpentī”ti?
no“No indeedhidaṁ, worthybho Gotamagotama.
sometimesAppekadā, worthybho Gotamagotama, luxuryuḷārāni luxuryuḷārāni fresh foodskhādanīyāni they eatkhādanti, luxuryuḷārāni luxuryuḷārāni cooked foodsbhojanāni they eatbhuñjanti, luxuryuḷārāni luxuryuḷārāni tasty foodssāyanīyāni they tastesāyanti, luxuryuḷārāni luxuryuḷārāni beveragespānāni they drinkpivanti.
theyTe thisimaṁ bodykāyaṁ strengthbalaṁ they gathergāhenti indeednāma, they build upbrūhenti indeednāma, they get fatmedenti indeednāmā”ti.
what“Yaṁ indeedkho theyte, Aggivessanaaggivessana, earlierpurimaṁ having given uppahāya laterpacchā they accumulateupacinanti, thusevaṁ of thisimassa of the bodykāyassa increase and decreaseācayāpacayo there ishoti.
whatKinti butpana to youte, Aggivessanaaggivessana, development of the mindcittabhāvanā has been heardsutā”ti?
about development of the mindCittabhāvanāya indeedkho Saccakasaccako son of a Nigaṇṭhanigaṇṭhaputto by the Buddhabhagavatā askedpuṭṭho beingsamāno notna he was stumpedsampāyāsi.

“But Aggivessana, do they get by on so little?” “No, worthy Gotama. Sometimes they eat luxury fresh and cooked foods and drink a variety of luxury beverages. They gather their body’s strength, build it up, and get fat.” “What they earlier gave up, they later got back. That is how there is the increase and decrease of this body. But Aggivessana, what have you heard about development of the mind?” When Saccaka was questioned by the Buddha about development of the mind, he was stumped.

thenAtha indeedkho the Blessed Onebhagavā to Saccakasaccakaṁ the Nigaṇṭha's sonnigaṇṭhaputtaṁ said thisetadavoca:
that which“yāpi indeedkho by youte thisesā, Aggivessanaaggivessana, earlierpurimā development of the bodykāyabhāvanā describedbhāsitā that toosāpi of the noble oneariyassa in the trainingvinaye notno legitimatedhammikā development of the bodykāyabhāvanā.
even the development of the bodyKāyabhāvanampi indeedkho youtvaṁ, Aggivessanaaggivessana, notna understoodaññāsi, from wherekuto thenpana youtvaṁ development of the mindcittabhāvanaṁ will knowjānissasi?
stillApi andca, Aggivessanaaggivessana, asyathā undeveloped in bodyabhāvitakāyo andca ishoti undeveloped in mindabhāvitacitto andca, developed in bodybhāvitakāyo andca ishoti developed in mindbhāvitacitto andca.
thatTaṁ listensuṇāhi, wellsādhukaṁ in your mindmanasi applykarohi, I will speakbhāsissāmī”ti.
yes“Evaṁ, worthy sirbho”ti indeedkho Saccakasaccako the Nigaṇṭha's sonnigaṇṭhaputto to the Blessed Onebhagavato repliedpaccassosi.
the Blessed OneBhagavā said thisetadavoca:

So the Buddha said to Saccaka, “The development of physical endurance that you have described is not the legitimate development of physical endurance in the Noble One’s training. And since you don’t even understand the development of physical endurance, how can you possibly understand the development of the mind? Still, as to how someone is undeveloped in physical endurance and mind, and how someone is developed in physical endurance and mind, listen and apply your mind well, I will speak.” “Yes, worthy sir,” replied Saccaka. The Buddha said this:

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