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Majjhima Nikāya 56

Upālisutta

With Upāli · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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by thatTena indeedkho nowpana at the timesamayena the Jainnigaṇṭho Nāta·sonnāṭaputto with a largemahatiyā layperson·assemblygihiparisāya together withsaddhiṁ down·satnisinno washoti of Bālakibālakiniyā assemblyparisāya Upāli·headed byupālipamukhāya.
sawAddasā indeedkho the Jainnigaṇṭho Nāta·sonnāṭaputto Dīgha·Tapassīdīghatapassiṁ Jainnigaṇṭhaṁ afar + indeeddūratova towards·goingāgacchantaṁ;
having seendisvāna Dīgha·Tapassīdīghatapassiṁ Jainnigaṇṭhaṁ this·saidetadavoca:
so“handa from wherekuto thennu youtvaṁ, Tapassītapassi, towards·goāgacchasi by daydivā day·middivassā”ti?
from here“Ito justhi indeedkho Iahaṁ, sirbhante, towards·goāgacchāmi of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa from the presencesantikā”ti.
was there“Ahu butpana of youte, Tapassītapassi, with the asceticsamaṇena Gotamagotamena together withsaddhiṁ some·kind ofkocideva talk·discussionkathāsallāpo”ti?
there was“Ahu indeedkho of meme, sirbhante, with the asceticsamaṇena Gotamagotamena together withsaddhiṁ some·kind ofkocideva talk·discussionkathāsallāpo”ti.
in what way“Yathā howkathaṁ thenpana of youte, Tapassītapassi, was thereahu with the asceticsamaṇena Gotamagotamena together withsaddhiṁ some·kind ofkocideva talk·discussionkathāsallāpo”ti?
thenAtha indeedkho Dīgha·Tapassīdīghatapassī the Jainnigaṇṭho as much asyāvatako there wasahosi with the Blessed Onebhagavatā together withsaddhiṁ talk·discussionkathāsallāpo thattaṁ allsabbaṁ to the Jainnigaṇṭhassa Nāta·sonnāṭaputtassa towards·informedārocesi.

Now at that time the Jain Ñātika was sitting together with a large assembly of Bālaki laypeople headed by Upāli. The Jain Ñātika saw Dīgha Tapassī coming off in the distance and said to him, “So, Tapassī, where are you coming from in the middle of the day?” “Just now, sir, I’ve come from the presence of the ascetic Gotama.” “But did you have some discussion with him?” “I did.” “And what kind of discussion did you have with him?” Then Dīgha Tapassī informed the Jain Ñātika of all they had discussed.

thusEvaṁ when spokenvutte, the Jainnigaṇṭho Ñātikanāṭaputto Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassiṁ the Jainnigaṇṭhaṁ said thisetadavoca:
good“sādhu goodsādhu, Tapassītapassi.
asYathā thattaṁ by one who has heardsutavatā by a disciplesāvakena rightlysammadeva the Teacher's instructionsatthusāsanaṁ by one understandingājānantena even soevameva by Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassinā by the Jainnigaṇṭhena to the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa answeredbyākataṁ.
for howKiñhi is significantsobhati measlychavo mental rodmanodaṇḍo of thisimassa soevaṁ solidoḷārikassa physical rodkāyadaṇḍassa when compared withupanidhāya.
ratherAtha indeedkho the physical rodkāyadaṇḍova most blameworthymahāsāvajjataro of badpāpassa deedkammassa for performingkiriyāya of badpāpassa deedkammassa for the productionpavattiyā, notno sotathā verbal rodvacīdaṇḍo, notno sotathā mental rodmanodaṇḍo”ti.

When he had spoken, the Jain Ñātika said to him, “Good, good, Tapassī! The Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions. For how significant is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod? Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”

thusEvaṁ when saidvutte, Upāliupāli householdergahapati to Nigaṇṭhanigaṇṭhaṁ Nāṭaputtanāṭaputtaṁ said thisetadavoca:
good“sādhu goodsādhu, sirbhante Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassī.
asYathā thattaṁ by one who has heardsutavatā by a disciplesāvakena rightly indeedsammadeva the teacher's instructionsatthusāsanaṁ by one understandingājānantena just soevamevaṁ by the honorablebhadantena by the ascetictapassinā of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa answeredbyākataṁ.
for howKiñhi shinessobhati measlychavo mental rodmanodaṇḍo of thisimassa thusevaṁ solidoḷārikassa of the physical rodkāyadaṇḍassa compared withupanidhāya.
ratherAtha indeedkho the physical rodkāyadaṇḍova most blameworthymahāsāvajjataro of badpāpassa deedkammassa for performingkiriyāya of badpāpassa deedkammassa for the productionpavattiyā, notno sotathā verbal rodvacīdaṇḍo, notno sotathā mental rodmanodaṇḍo.
well thenHanda and Icāhaṁ, sirbhante, I gogacchāmi of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa in thisimasmiṁ in the point of discussionkathāvatthusmiṁ doctrinevādaṁ I will refuteāropessāmi.
ifSace to meme the asceticsamaṇo Gotamagotamo sotathā will stand bypatiṭṭhahissati asyathā by the honorablebhadantena by the ascetictapassinā statedpatiṭṭhāpitaṁ; just asseyyathāpi likenāma a strongbalavā manpuriso a fleecydīghalomikaṁ sheepeḷakaṁ by the hairslomesu having grabbedgahetvā would dragākaḍḍheyya would drag to and froparikaḍḍheyya would drag round aboutsamparikaḍḍheyya; just so Ievamevāhaṁ the asceticsamaṇaṁ Gotamagotamaṁ with debatevādena in debatevādaṁ I will dragākaḍḍhissāmi I will drag to and froparikaḍḍhissāmi I will drag round aboutsamparikaḍḍhissāmi.

When he said this, the householder Upāli said to him, “Good, sir! Well done, Dīgha Tapassī! The Honorable Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions. For how significant is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod? Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod. I’d better go and refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine regarding this point. If he stands by the position that he stated to Dīgha Tapassī, I’ll take him on in debate and drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong man would grab a fleecy sheep and drag it to and fro and round about!

just asSeyyathāpi indeednāma strongbalavā brewer·workersoṇḍikākammakāro largemahantaṁ brewer·sievesoṇḍikākilañjaṁ deepgambhīre water·lakeudakarahade forth·throw·havingpakkhipitvā by the cornerskaṇṇe grab·havinggahetvā to·drag·wouldākaḍḍheyya around·drag·wouldparikaḍḍheyya would drag round aboutsamparikaḍḍheyya; so then Ievamevāhaṁ the asceticsamaṇaṁ Gotamagotamaṁ in debatevādena debatevādaṁ to·drag·I willākaḍḍhissāmi around·drag·I willparikaḍḍhissāmi I will drag round aboutsamparikaḍḍhissāmi.
just asSeyyathāpi indeednāma strongbalavā brewer·mixersoṇḍikādhutto strainervālaṁ by the cornerskaṇṇe grab·havinggahetvā down·shake·wouldodhuneyya down·shake·wouldniddhuneyya would beatnipphoṭeyya; so then Ievamevāhaṁ the asceticsamaṇaṁ Gotamagotamaṁ in debatevādena debatevādaṁ down·shake·I willodhunissāmi down·shake·I willniddhunissāmi I will beatnipphoṭessāmi.
just asSeyyathāpi indeednāma an elephantkuñjaro sixty·year-oldsaṭṭhihāyano deepgambhīraṁ lotus·pondpokkharaṇiṁ into·plunge·havingogāhetvā hemp·washingsāṇadhovikaṁ callednāma game·becomekīḷitajātaṁ playskīḷati; so then Ievamevāhaṁ the asceticsamaṇaṁ Gotamagotamaṁ hemp·washingsāṇadhovikaṁ think·Imaññe game·becomekīḷitajātaṁ I will playkīḷissāmi.
come thenHanda now Icāhaṁ, sirbhante, go·Igacchāmi of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa this·inimasmiṁ talk·point·inkathāvatthusmiṁ debatevādaṁ I will refuteāropessāmī”ti.
Go“Gaccha youtvaṁ, householdergahapati, of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa this·inimasmiṁ talk·point·inkathāvatthusmiṁ debatevādaṁ refuteāropehi.
IAhaṁ orvā indeedhi, householdergahapati, of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa debatevādaṁ would refuteāropeyyaṁ, long·asceticdīghatapassī orvā the Jainnigaṇṭho, youtvaṁ orvā”ti.

Taking him on in debate, I’ll drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong brewer’s worker would toss a large brewer’s sieve into a deep lake, grab it by the corners, and drag it to and fro and round about! Taking him on in debate, I’ll shake him down and about and give him a beating, like a strong brewer’s mixer would grab a strainer by the corners and shake it down and about, and give it a beating! I’ll play a game of hemp-washing with the ascetic Gotama, like a sixty-year-old elephant would plunge into a deep lotus pond and play a game of hemp-washing! Sir, I’d better go and refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.” “Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point. For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”

thusEvaṁ when saidvutte, long·asceticdīghatapassī the Jainnigaṇṭho to the Jainnigaṇṭhaṁ Nāṭaputtanāṭaputtaṁ said thisetadavoca:
not“na indeedkho to me + thismetaṁ, sirbhante, pleasesruccati thatyaṁ Upāliupāli householdergahapati of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa doctrinevādaṁ onto·placeāropeyya.
the asceticSamaṇo forhi, sirbhante, Gotamagotamo is deceitfulmāyāvī a conversion trickāvaṭṭaniṁ trickmāyaṁ knowsjānāti by whichyāya other·sectarianaññatitthiyānaṁ disciplessāvake onto·turnāvaṭṭetī”ti.
it is impossible“Aṭṭhānaṁ indeedkho thisetaṁ, Tapassītapassi, not·occasionanavakāso thatyaṁ Upāliupāli householdergahapati of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa discipleshipsāvakattaṁ to·goupagaccheyya.
but it is possibleṬhānañca indeedkho thisetaṁ is foundvijjati thatyaṁ the asceticsamaṇo Gotamagotamo of Upāliupālissa of the householdergahapatissa discipleshipsāvakattaṁ to·goupagaccheyya.
goGaccha youtvaṁ, householdergahapati, of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa on thisimasmiṁ talk·subjectkathāvatthusmiṁ doctrinevādaṁ onto·placeāropehi.
IAhaṁ orvā forhi, householdergahapati, of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa doctrinevādaṁ onto·placeāropeyyaṁ, long·asceticdīghatapassī orvā the Jainnigaṇṭho, youtvaṁ orvā”ti.

When he said this, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Jain Ñātika, “Sir, I don’t believe it’s a good idea for the householder Upāli to rebut the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine. For the ascetic Gotama is deceitful. He knows a conversion trick, and uses it to convert the disciples of other religions.” “It is impossible, Tapassī, it cannot happen that Upāli could become Gotama’s disciple. But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple. Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point. For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”

second·also·alsoDutiyampi indeedkho Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassī …pe……pe…
third·also·alsotatiyampi indeedkho Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassī the Jainnigaṇṭho to the Jainnigaṇṭhaṁ Ñātikanāṭaputtaṁ this·say·to·sayetadavoca:
quote:“na indeedkho this to memetaṁ, sirbhante, is pleasingruccati thatyaṁ Upāliupāli householdergahapati of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa doctrinevādaṁ should refuteāropeyya.
the asceticSamaṇo forhi, sirbhante, Gotamagotamo is deceitfulmāyāvī a conversion trickāvaṭṭaniṁ trickmāyaṁ knowsjānāti by whichyāya other·sectariansaññatitthiyānaṁ disciplessāvake convertsāvaṭṭetī”ti.
It is impossible“Aṭṭhānaṁ indeedkho thisetaṁ, Tapassītapassi, cannot happenanavakāso thatyaṁ Upāliupāli householdergahapati of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa discipleshipsāvakattaṁ could go toupagaccheyya.
possible + and·andṬhānañca indeedkho thisetaṁ existsvijjati thatyaṁ the asceticsamaṇo Gotamagotamo of Upāliupālissa householdergahapatissa discipleshipsāvakattaṁ could go toupagaccheyya.
goGaccha youtvaṁ, householdergahapati, of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa in thisimasmiṁ talk·groundkathāvatthusmiṁ doctrinevādaṁ refuteāropehi.
IAhaṁ orvā forhi, householdergahapati, of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa doctrinevādaṁ should refuteāropeyyaṁ, Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassī orvā the Jainnigaṇṭho, youtvaṁ orvā”ti.

For a second time … and a third time, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Jain Ñātika, “Sir, I don’t believe it’s a good idea for the householder Upāli to rebut the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine. For the ascetic Gotama is deceitful. He knows a conversion trick, and uses it to convert the disciples of other religions.” “It is impossible, Tapassī, it cannot happen that Upāli could become Gotama’s disciple. But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple. Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point. For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”

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