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Majjhima Nikāya 56

Upālisutta

With Upāli · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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thus“Evaṁ, sir, he saidbhante”ti indeedkho Upāliupāli householdergahapati to the Jainnigaṇṭhassa to Ñātikanāṭaputtassa back·listenpaṭissutvā rising + seatuṭṭhāyāsanā the Jainnigaṇṭhaṁ Ñātikanāṭaputtaṁ towards·speakabhivādetvā respectfullypadakkhiṇaṁ having donekatvā whereyena Pāvārika·mango-grovepāvārikambavanaṁ whereyena the Blessed Onebhagavā approached himtenupasaṅkami; near·goupasaṅkamitvā the Blessed Onebhagavantaṁ towards·speakabhivādetvā to one sideekamantaṁ sat downnisīdi. to one sideEkamantaṁ down·sitnisinno indeedkho Upāliupāli householdergahapati the Blessed Onebhagavantaṁ said thisetadavoca:
did he come“āgamā thennu herekhvidha, sirbhante, long·asceticdīghatapassī the Jainnigaṇṭho”ti?
he came“Āgamā herekhvidha, householdergahapati, long·asceticdīghatapassī the Jainnigaṇṭho”ti.
was there“Ahu indeedkho butpana for youte, sirbhante, long·asceticdīghatapassinā with the Jainnigaṇṭhena withsaddhiṁ somekocideva discussionkathāsallāpo”ti?
was there“Ahu indeedkho for meme, householdergahapati, long·asceticdīghatapassinā with the Jainnigaṇṭhena withsaddhiṁ somekocideva discussionkathāsallāpo”ti.
in what way“Yathā thenkathaṁ butpana for youte, sirbhante, was thereahu long·asceticdīghatapassinā with the Jainnigaṇṭhena withsaddhiṁ somekocideva discussionkathāsallāpo”ti?
thenAtha indeedkho the Blessed Onebhagavā as much asyāvatako there wasahosi long·asceticdīghatapassinā with the Jainnigaṇṭhena withsaddhiṁ talk·conversationkathāsallāpo thattaṁ allsabbaṁ to Upāliupālissa to the householdergahapatissa toldārocesi.

“Yes, sir,” replied the householder Upāli to the Jain Ñātika. He rose from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled him, keeping him on his right. Then he went to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him, “Sir, did the Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī come here?” “He did, householder.” “But did you have some discussion with him?” “I did.” “And what kind of discussion did you have with him?” Then the Buddha informed Upāli of all they had discussed.

thusEvaṁ when saidvutte, Upāliupāli householdergahapati to the Blessed Onebhagavantaṁ said thisetadavoca:
good“sādhu goodsādhu, sirbhante Tapassītapassī.
asYathā thattaṁ by one who has heardsutavatā by a disciplesāvakena rightlysammadeva Teacher·instructionsatthusāsanaṁ by one who understandsājānantena just soevamevaṁ long·asceticdīghatapassinā by the Jainnigaṇṭhena by the Blessed Onebhagavato answeredbyākataṁ.
for howKiñhi shinessobhati measlychavo mind·rodmanodaṇḍo of thisimassa thusevaṁ solidoḷārikassa body·rodkāyadaṇḍassa when compared withupanidhāya?
ratherAtha indeedkho the physical rod indeedkāyadaṇḍova great·blameworthymahāsāvajjataro of badpāpassa of kammakammassa for performingkiriyāya of badpāpassa of kammakammassa for the productionpavattiyā, notno sotathā the verbal rodvacīdaṇḍo, notno sotathā the mental rodmanodaṇḍo”ti.
if“Sace indeedkho youtvaṁ, householdergahapati, on truthsacce having establishedpatiṭṭhāya you should debatemanteyyāsi there may besiyā ourno hereettha discussionkathāsallāpo”ti.
on truth“Sacce Iahaṁ, sirbhante, having establishedpatiṭṭhāya I will debatemantessāmi;
let there behotu ourno hereettha discussionkathāsallāpo”ti.

When he said this, the householder Upāli said to him, “Good, sir, well done by Tapassī! The Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions. For how impressive is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod? Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.” “Householder, so long as you debate on the basis of truth, we can have some discussion about this.” “I will debate on the basis of truth, sir. Let us have some discussion about this.”

that“Taṁ what?kiṁ you thinkmaññasi, householdergahapati,
here there would beidhassa without·knotnigaṇṭho sickābādhiko sufferingdukkhito gravely illbāḷhagilāno rejecting cold watersītodakapaṭikkhitto using hot wateruṇhodakapaṭisevī.
heSo cold watersītodakaṁ not gettingalabhamāno deathkālaṁ might makekareyya.
of this oneImassa nowpana, householdergahapati, without·knotnigaṇṭho Ñātikanāṭaputto rebirth wherekatthūpapattiṁ declarespaññapetī”ti?
there are“Atthi, sirbhante, mind·beingsmanosattā callednāma godsdevā theretattha heso is rebornupapajjati”.
that“Taṁ of whatkissa causehetu”?
that“Asu indeedhi, sirbhante, mentally boundmanopaṭibaddho deathkālaṁ makeskarotī”ti.
mind“Manasi makekarohi, householdergahapati, mindmanasi having madekaritvā indeedkho, householdergahapati, answerbyākarohi.
notNa indeedkho yourte it agreessandhiyati with the earlierpurimena orvā the laterpacchimaṁ, with the laterpacchimena orvā the earlierpurimaṁ.
spokenBhāsitā indeedkho butpana by youte, householdergahapati, thisesā wordvācā:
on truth‘sacce Iahaṁ, sirbhante, having establishedpatiṭṭhāya I will debatemantessāmi,
let there behotu for usno hereettha talk and discussionkathāsallāpo’”ti.
even though“Kiñcāpi, sirbhante, the Blessed Onebhagavā says thusevamāha, stillatha indeedkho the physical rodkāyadaṇḍova great·blameworthymahāsāvajjataro of badpāpassa of actionkammassa for the doingkiriyāya of badpāpassa of actionkammassa for the performingpavattiyā, notno so muchtathā the verbal rodvacīdaṇḍo, notno so muchtathā the mental rodmanodaṇḍo”ti.

“What do you think, householder? Take a Jain ascetic who is sick, suffering, gravely ill. They turn down cold water and use only hot water. Not getting cold water, they might die. Now, where does the Jain Ñātika say they would be reborn?” “Sir, there are gods called ‘mind-bound’. They would be reborn there. Why is that? Because they died with mental attachment.” “Think about it, householder! You should think before answering. What you said before and what you said after don’t match up. But you said that you would debate on the basis of truth.” “Even though the Buddha says this, still the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”

that“Taṁ what?kiṁ you thinkmaññasi, householdergahapati,
here one might beidhassa a Jain asceticnigaṇṭho of the Ñātika clannāṭaputto restrained in the fourfold constraintcātuyāmasaṁvarasaṁvuto restrained in all that is to be restrainedsabbavārivārito bridled in all that is to be restrainedsabbavāriyutto has shaken off evil in all that is to be restrainedsabbavāridhuto curbed in all that is to be restrainedsabbavāriphuṭo.
heSo going forwardabhikkamanto coming backpaṭikkamanto manybahū littlekhuddake creaturespāṇe injurysaṅghātaṁ causesāpādeti.
of this oneImassa nowpana, householdergahapati, Jain asceticnigaṇṭho of the Ñātika clannāṭaputto whatkaṁ resultvipākaṁ does he declarepaññapetī”ti?
unintentional“Asañcetanikaṁ, sirbhante, Jain asceticnigaṇṭho of the Ñātika clannāṭaputto notno great·blameworthymahāsāvajjaṁ declarespaññapetī”ti.
if“Sace butpana, householdergahapati, one intendscetetī”ti?
very blameworthy“Mahāsāvajjaṁ, sirbhante, it ishotī”ti.
intention“Cetanaṁ butpana, householdergahapati, Jain asceticnigaṇṭho of the Ñātika clannāṭaputto in whatkismiṁ does he declarepaññapetī”ti?
in the mental rod“Manodaṇḍasmiṁ, sirbhante”ti.
in the mind“Manasi makekarohi, householdergahapati, in the mindmanasi having madekaritvā indeedkho, householdergahapati, answerbyākarohi.
notNa indeedkho yourte is consistentsandhiyati with the formerpurimena orvā the latterpacchimaṁ, with the latterpacchimena orvā the formerpurimaṁ.
spokenBhāsitā indeedkho butpana by youte, householdergahapati, thisesā speechvācā:
on the basis of truth‘sacce Iahaṁ, sirbhante, having established myselfpatiṭṭhāya I will debatemantessāmi;
let there behotu ourno hereettha conversationkathāsallāpo’”ti.

“What do you think, householder? Take a Jain ascetic who is restrained in the fourfold constraint, is restrained in all that is to be restrained, is bridled in all that is to be restrained, has shaken off evil in all that is to be restrained, and is curbed in all that is to be restrained. When going out and coming back they injure many little creatures. Now, what result does the Jain Ñātika say they would incur?” “Sir, the Jain Ñātika says that unintentional acts are not very blameworthy.” “But if they are intentional?” “Then they are very blameworthy.” “But where does the Jain Ñātika say that intention is classified?” “In the mental rod, sir.” “Think about it, householder! You should think before answering. What you said before and what you said after don’t match up. But you said that you would debate on the basis of truth.”

even though“Kiñcāpi, venerable sirbhante, the Blessed Onebhagavā speaks thusevamāha, stillatha indeedkho the physical rodkāyadaṇḍova more blameworthymahāsāvajjataro of evilpāpassa deedkammassa for performingkiriyāya of evilpāpassa deedkammassa for the productionpavattiyā, notno so muchtathā the verbal rodvacīdaṇḍo, notno so muchtathā the mental rodmanodaṇḍo”ti.

“Even though the Buddha says this, still the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”

that“Taṁ whatkiṁ you thinkmaññasi, householdergahapati,
thisayaṁ Nāḷandānāḷandā successfuliddhā indeedceva prosperousphītā andca many·peoplebahujanā crowded with peopleākiṇṇamanussā”ti?
thus“Evaṁ, sirbhante, thisayaṁ Nāḷandānāḷandā successfuliddhā indeedceva prosperousphītā andca many·peoplebahujanā crowded with peopleākiṇṇamanussā”ti.
that“Taṁ whatkiṁ you thinkmaññasi, householdergahapati,
hereidha a manpuriso to·goāgaccheyya with a drawn swordukkhittāsiko.
heSo thusevaṁ he would sayvadeyya:
I‘ahaṁ as many asyāvatikā of thisimissā of Nāḷandānāḷandāya living creaturespāṇā thosete with oneekena momentkhaṇena with oneekena momentmuhuttena oneekaṁ flesh·heapmaṁsakhalaṁ oneekaṁ flesh·massmaṁsapuñjaṁ I will makekarissāmī’ti.
thatTaṁ whatkiṁ you thinkmaññasi, householdergahapati,
couldpahoti nownu indeedkho heso manpuriso as many asyāvatikā of thisimissā of Nāḷandānāḷandāya living creaturespāṇā thosete with oneekena momentkhaṇena with oneekena momentmuhuttena oneekaṁ flesh·heapmaṁsakhalaṁ oneekaṁ flesh·massmaṁsapuñjaṁ to makekātun”ti?

“What do you think, householder? Is this Nāḷandā successful and prosperous, populous and full of people?” “Indeed it is, sir.” “What do you think, householder? Suppose a man were to come along with a drawn sword and say: ‘In one hour I will reduce all the living creatures within the bounds of Nāḷandā to one heap and mass of flesh!’ What do you think, householder? Could he do that?”

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