Upālisutta

Majjhima Nikāya 56

With Upāli · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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Tena kho pana samayena nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto mahatiyā gihiparisāya saddhiṁ nisinno hoti bālakiniyā parisāya upālipamukhāya.
Addasā kho nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto dīghatapassiṁ nigaṇṭhaṁ dūratova āgacchantaṁ;
disvāna dīghatapassiṁ nigaṇṭhaṁ etadavoca:
“handa kuto nu tvaṁ, tapassi, āgacchasi divā divassā”ti?
“Ito hi kho ahaṁ, bhante, āgacchāmi samaṇassa gotamassa santikā”ti.
“Ahu pana te, tapassi, samaṇena gotamena saddhiṁ kocideva kathāsallāpo”ti?
“Ahu kho me, bhante, samaṇena gotamena saddhiṁ kocideva kathāsallāpo”ti.
“Yathā kathaṁ pana te, tapassi, ahu samaṇena gotamena saddhiṁ kocideva kathāsallāpo”ti?
Atha kho dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho yāvatako ahosi bhagavatā saddhiṁ kathāsallāpo taṁ sabbaṁ nigaṇṭhassa nāṭaputtassa ārocesi.

Now at that time the Jain Ñātika was sitting together with a large assembly of Bālaki laypeople headed by Upāli. The Jain Ñātika saw Dīgha Tapassī coming off in the distance and said to him, “So, Tapassī, where are you coming from in the middle of the day?” “Just now, sir, I’ve come from the presence of the ascetic Gotama.” “But did you have some discussion with him?” “I did.” “And what kind of discussion did you have with him?” Then Dīgha Tapassī informed the Jain Ñātika of all they had discussed.

Evaṁ vutte, nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto dīghatapassiṁ nigaṇṭhaṁ etadavoca:
“sādhu sādhu, tapassi.
Yathā taṁ sutavatā sāvakena sammadeva satthusāsanaṁ ājānantena evameva dīghatapassinā nigaṇṭhena samaṇassa gotamassa byākataṁ.
Kiñhi sobhati chavo manodaṇḍo imassa evaṁ oḷārikassa kāyadaṇḍassa upanidhāya.
Atha kho kāyadaṇḍova mahāsāvajjataro pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, no tathā vacīdaṇḍo, no tathā manodaṇḍo”ti.

When he had spoken, the Jain Ñātika said to him, “Good, good, Tapassī! The Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions. For how significant is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod? Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”

Evaṁ vutte, upāli gahapati nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca:
“sādhu sādhu, bhante dīghatapassī.
Yathā taṁ sutavatā sāvakena sammadeva satthusāsanaṁ ājānantena evamevaṁ bhadantena tapassinā samaṇassa gotamassa byākataṁ.
Kiñhi sobhati chavo manodaṇḍo imassa evaṁ oḷārikassa kāyadaṇḍassa upanidhāya.
Atha kho kāyadaṇḍova mahāsāvajjataro pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya pāpassa kammassa pavattiyā, no tathā vacīdaṇḍo, no tathā manodaṇḍo.
Handa cāhaṁ, bhante, gacchāmi samaṇassa gotamassa imasmiṁ kathāvatthusmiṁ vādaṁ āropessāmi.
Sace me samaṇo gotamo tathā patiṭṭhahissati yathā bhadantena tapassinā patiṭṭhāpitaṁ; seyyathāpi nāma balavā puriso dīghalomikaṁ eḷakaṁ lomesu gahetvā ākaḍḍheyya parikaḍḍheyya samparikaḍḍheyya; evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ ākaḍḍhissāmi parikaḍḍhissāmi samparikaḍḍhissāmi.

When he said this, the householder Upāli said to him, “Good, sir! Well done, Dīgha Tapassī! The Honorable Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions. For how significant is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod? Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod. I’d better go and refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine regarding this point. If he stands by the position that he stated to Dīgha Tapassī, I’ll take him on in debate and drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong man would grab a fleecy sheep and drag it to and fro and round about!

Seyyathāpi nāma balavā soṇḍikākammakāro mahantaṁ soṇḍikākilañjaṁ gambhīre udakarahade pakkhipitvā kaṇṇe gahetvā ākaḍḍheyya parikaḍḍheyya samparikaḍḍheyya; evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ ākaḍḍhissāmi parikaḍḍhissāmi samparikaḍḍhissāmi.
Seyyathāpi nāma balavā soṇḍikādhutto vālaṁ kaṇṇe gahetvā odhuneyya niddhuneyya nipphoṭeyya; evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ odhunissāmi niddhunissāmi nipphoṭessāmi.
Seyyathāpi nāma kuñjaro saṭṭhihāyano gambhīraṁ pokkharaṇiṁ ogāhetvā sāṇadhovikaṁ nāma kīḷitajātaṁ kīḷati; evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ sāṇadhovikaṁ maññe kīḷitajātaṁ kīḷissāmi.
Handa cāhaṁ, bhante, gacchāmi samaṇassa gotamassa imasmiṁ kathāvatthusmiṁ vādaṁ āropessāmī”ti.
“Gaccha tvaṁ, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa imasmiṁ kathāvatthusmiṁ vādaṁ āropehi.
Ahaṁ vā hi, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropeyyaṁ, dīghatapassī vā nigaṇṭho, tvaṁ vā”ti.

Taking him on in debate, I’ll drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong brewer’s worker would toss a large brewer’s sieve into a deep lake, grab it by the corners, and drag it to and fro and round about! Taking him on in debate, I’ll shake him down and about and give him a beating, like a strong brewer’s mixer would grab a strainer by the corners and shake it down and about, and give it a beating! I’ll play a game of hemp-washing with the ascetic Gotama, like a sixty-year-old elephant would plunge into a deep lotus pond and play a game of hemp-washing! Sir, I’d better go and refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.” “Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point. For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”

Evaṁ vutte, dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca:
“na kho metaṁ, bhante, ruccati yaṁ upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropeyya.
Samaṇo hi, bhante, gotamo māyāvī āvaṭṭaniṁ māyaṁ jānāti yāya aññatitthiyānaṁ sāvake āvaṭṭetī”ti.
“Aṭṭhānaṁ kho etaṁ, tapassi, anavakāso yaṁ upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakattaṁ upagaccheyya.
Ṭhānañca kho etaṁ vijjati yaṁ samaṇo gotamo upālissa gahapatissa sāvakattaṁ upagaccheyya.
Gaccha tvaṁ, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa imasmiṁ kathāvatthusmiṁ vādaṁ āropehi.
Ahaṁ vā hi, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropeyyaṁ, dīghatapassī vā nigaṇṭho, tvaṁ vā”ti.

When he said this, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Jain Ñātika, “Sir, I don’t believe it’s a good idea for the householder Upāli to rebut the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine. For the ascetic Gotama is deceitful. He knows a conversion trick, and uses it to convert the disciples of other religions.” “It is impossible, Tapassī, it cannot happen that Upāli could become Gotama’s disciple. But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple. Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point. For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”

Dutiyampi kho dīghatapassī …pe…
tatiyampi kho dīghatapassī nigaṇṭho nigaṇṭhaṁ nāṭaputtaṁ etadavoca:
“na kho metaṁ, bhante, ruccati yaṁ upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropeyya.
Samaṇo hi, bhante, gotamo māyāvī āvaṭṭaniṁ māyaṁ jānāti yāya aññatitthiyānaṁ sāvake āvaṭṭetī”ti.
“Aṭṭhānaṁ kho etaṁ, tapassi, anavakāso yaṁ upāli gahapati samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakattaṁ upagaccheyya.
Ṭhānañca kho etaṁ vijjati yaṁ samaṇo gotamo upālissa gahapatissa sāvakattaṁ upagaccheyya.
Gaccha tvaṁ, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa imasmiṁ kathāvatthusmiṁ vādaṁ āropehi.
Ahaṁ vā hi, gahapati, samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropeyyaṁ, dīghatapassī vā nigaṇṭho, tvaṁ vā”ti.

For a second time … and a third time, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Jain Ñātika, “Sir, I don’t believe it’s a good idea for the householder Upāli to rebut the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine. For the ascetic Gotama is deceitful. He knows a conversion trick, and uses it to convert the disciples of other religions.” “It is impossible, Tapassī, it cannot happen that Upāli could become Gotama’s disciple. But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple. Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point. For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”

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