Upālisutta

Majjhima Nikāya 56

With Upāli · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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by thatTena indeedkho nowpana at the timesamayena the Jainnigaṇṭho Nātikanāṭaputto with a largemahatiyā with an assembly of laypeoplegihiparisāya together withsaddhiṁ seatednisinno washoti of Bālakibālakiniyā assemblyparisāya headed by Upāliupālipamukhāya.
sawAddasā indeedkho the Jainnigaṇṭho Nātikanāṭaputto Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassiṁ Jainnigaṇṭhaṁ from afar indeeddūratova comingāgacchantaṁ;
having seendisvāna Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassiṁ Jainnigaṇṭhaṁ said this to himetadavoca:
so“handa from wherekuto thennu youtvaṁ, Tapassītapassi, are you comingāgacchasi by daydivā in the middle of the day?divassā”ti?
from here“Ito justhi indeedkho Iahaṁ, sirbhante, I am comingāgacchāmi of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa from the presencesantikā”ti.
was there“Ahu butpana of youte, Tapassītapassi, with the asceticsamaṇena Gotamagotamena together withsaddhiṁ some kind ofkocideva discussion?kathāsallāpo”ti?
there was“Ahu indeedkho of meme, sirbhante, with the asceticsamaṇena Gotamagotamena together withsaddhiṁ some kind ofkocideva discussion.kathāsallāpo”ti.
in what way“Yathā howkathaṁ thenpana of youte, Tapassītapassi, was thereahu with the asceticsamaṇena Gotamagotamena together withsaddhiṁ some kind ofkocideva discussion?kathāsallāpo”ti?
thenAtha indeedkho Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassī the Jainnigaṇṭho as much asyāvatako there wasahosi with the Blessed Onebhagavatā together withsaddhiṁ discussionkathāsallāpo thattaṁ allsabbaṁ to the Jainnigaṇṭhassa Nātikanāṭaputtassa informedārocesi.

Now at that time the Jain Ñātika was sitting together with a large assembly of Bālaki laypeople headed by Upāli. The Jain Ñātika saw Dīgha Tapassī coming off in the distance and said to him, “So, Tapassī, where are you coming from in the middle of the day?” “Just now, sir, I’ve come from the presence of the ascetic Gotama.” “But did you have some discussion with him?” “I did.” “And what kind of discussion did you have with him?” Then Dīgha Tapassī informed the Jain Ñātika of all they had discussed.

thusEvaṁ when spokenvutte, the Jainnigaṇṭho Ñātikanāṭaputto Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassiṁ the Jainnigaṇṭhaṁ said thisetadavoca:
good“sādhu goodsādhu, Tapassītapassi.
asYathā thattaṁ by one who has heardsutavatā by a disciplesāvakena rightlysammadeva the Teacher's instructionsatthusāsanaṁ by one understandingājānantena even soevameva by Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassinā by the Jainnigaṇṭhena to the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa answeredbyākataṁ.
for howKiñhi is significantsobhati measlychavo mental rodmanodaṇḍo of thisimassa soevaṁ solidoḷārikassa physical rodkāyadaṇḍassa when compared withupanidhāya.
ratherAtha indeedkho the physical rodkāyadaṇḍova most blameworthymahāsāvajjataro of badpāpassa deedkammassa for performingkiriyāya of badpāpassa deedkammassa for the productionpavattiyā, notno sotathā verbal rodvacīdaṇḍo, notno sotathā mental rodmanodaṇḍo”ti.

When he had spoken, the Jain Ñātika said to him, “Good, good, Tapassī! The Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions. For how significant is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod? Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”

thusEvaṁ when saidvutte, Upāliupāli householdergahapati to Nigaṇṭhanigaṇṭhaṁ Nāṭaputtanāṭaputtaṁ said thisetadavoca:
good“sādhu goodsādhu, sirbhante Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassī.
asYathā thattaṁ by one who has heardsutavatā by a disciplesāvakena rightly indeedsammadeva the teacher's instructionsatthusāsanaṁ by one understandingājānantena just soevamevaṁ by the honorablebhadantena by the ascetictapassinā of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa answeredbyākataṁ.
for howKiñhi shinessobhati measlychavo mental rodmanodaṇḍo of thisimassa thusevaṁ solidoḷārikassa of the physical rodkāyadaṇḍassa compared withupanidhāya.
ratherAtha indeedkho the physical rodkāyadaṇḍova most blameworthymahāsāvajjataro of badpāpassa deedkammassa for performingkiriyāya of badpāpassa deedkammassa for the productionpavattiyā, notno sotathā verbal rodvacīdaṇḍo, notno sotathā mental rodmanodaṇḍo.
well thenHanda and Icāhaṁ, sirbhante, I gogacchāmi of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa in thisimasmiṁ in the point of discussionkathāvatthusmiṁ doctrinevādaṁ I will refuteāropessāmi.
ifSace to meme the asceticsamaṇo Gotamagotamo sotathā will stand bypatiṭṭhahissati asyathā by the honorablebhadantena by the ascetictapassinā statedpatiṭṭhāpitaṁ; just asseyyathāpi likenāma a strongbalavā manpuriso a fleecydīghalomikaṁ sheepeḷakaṁ by the hairslomesu having grabbedgahetvā would dragākaḍḍheyya would drag to and froparikaḍḍheyya would drag round aboutsamparikaḍḍheyya; just so Ievamevāhaṁ the asceticsamaṇaṁ Gotamagotamaṁ with debatevādena in debatevādaṁ I will dragākaḍḍhissāmi I will drag to and froparikaḍḍhissāmi I will drag round aboutsamparikaḍḍhissāmi.

When he said this, the householder Upāli said to him, “Good, sir! Well done, Dīgha Tapassī! The Honorable Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions. For how significant is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod? Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod. I’d better go and refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine regarding this point. If he stands by the position that he stated to Dīgha Tapassī, I’ll take him on in debate and drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong man would grab a fleecy sheep and drag it to and fro and round about!

just asSeyyathāpi indeednāma strongbalavā brewer's workersoṇḍikākammakāro largemahantaṁ brewer's sievesoṇḍikākilañjaṁ deepgambhīre in a lakeudakarahade having thrownpakkhipitvā by the cornerskaṇṇe having grabbedgahetvā would dragākaḍḍheyya would drag aroundparikaḍḍheyya would drag round aboutsamparikaḍḍheyya; so then Ievamevāhaṁ the asceticsamaṇaṁ Gotamagotamaṁ in debatevādena debatevādaṁ I will dragākaḍḍhissāmi I will drag aroundparikaḍḍhissāmi I will drag round aboutsamparikaḍḍhissāmi.
just asSeyyathāpi indeednāma strongbalavā brewer's mixersoṇḍikādhutto strainervālaṁ by the cornerskaṇṇe having grabbedgahetvā would shake downodhuneyya would shake aboutniddhuneyya would beatnipphoṭeyya; so then Ievamevāhaṁ the asceticsamaṇaṁ Gotamagotamaṁ in debatevādena debatevādaṁ I will shake downodhunissāmi I will shake aboutniddhunissāmi I will beatnipphoṭessāmi.
just asSeyyathāpi indeednāma an elephantkuñjaro sixty-year-oldsaṭṭhihāyano deepgambhīraṁ lotus pondpokkharaṇiṁ having plungedogāhetvā hemp-washingsāṇadhovikaṁ callednāma a gamekīḷitajātaṁ playskīḷati; so then Ievamevāhaṁ the asceticsamaṇaṁ Gotamagotamaṁ hemp-washingsāṇadhovikaṁ I thinkmaññe a gamekīḷitajātaṁ I will playkīḷissāmi.
come thenHanda now Icāhaṁ, sirbhante, I gogacchāmi of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa in thisimasmiṁ point of discussionkathāvatthusmiṁ debatevādaṁ I will refuteāropessāmī”ti.
Go“Gaccha youtvaṁ, householdergahapati, of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa in thisimasmiṁ point of discussionkathāvatthusmiṁ debatevādaṁ refuteāropehi.
IAhaṁ orvā indeedhi, householdergahapati, of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa debatevādaṁ would refuteāropeyyaṁ, Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassī orvā the Jainnigaṇṭho, youtvaṁ orvā”ti.

Taking him on in debate, I’ll drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong brewer’s worker would toss a large brewer’s sieve into a deep lake, grab it by the corners, and drag it to and fro and round about! Taking him on in debate, I’ll shake him down and about and give him a beating, like a strong brewer’s mixer would grab a strainer by the corners and shake it down and about, and give it a beating! I’ll play a game of hemp-washing with the ascetic Gotama, like a sixty-year-old elephant would plunge into a deep lotus pond and play a game of hemp-washing! Sir, I’d better go and refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.” “Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point. For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”

thusEvaṁ when saidvutte, Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassī the Jainnigaṇṭho to the Jainnigaṇṭhaṁ Nāṭaputtanāṭaputtaṁ said thisetadavoca:
not“na indeedkho this to memetaṁ, sirbhante, pleasesruccati thatyaṁ Upāliupāli householdergahapati of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa doctrinevādaṁ should rebutāropeyya.
the asceticSamaṇo forhi, sirbhante, Gotamagotamo is deceitfulmāyāvī a conversion trickāvaṭṭaniṁ trickmāyaṁ knowsjānāti by whichyāya of other religionsaññatitthiyānaṁ disciplessāvake convertsāvaṭṭetī”ti.
it is impossible“Aṭṭhānaṁ indeedkho thisetaṁ, Tapassītapassi, cannot happenanavakāso thatyaṁ Upāliupāli householdergahapati of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa discipleshipsāvakattaṁ should go toupagaccheyya.
but it is possibleṬhānañca indeedkho thisetaṁ is foundvijjati thatyaṁ the asceticsamaṇo Gotamagotamo of Upāliupālissa of the householdergahapatissa discipleshipsāvakattaṁ should go toupagaccheyya.
goGaccha youtvaṁ, householdergahapati, of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa on thisimasmiṁ pointkathāvatthusmiṁ doctrinevādaṁ refuteāropehi.
IAhaṁ orvā forhi, householdergahapati, of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa doctrinevādaṁ should rebutāropeyyaṁ, Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassī orvā the Jainnigaṇṭho, youtvaṁ orvā”ti.

When he said this, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Jain Ñātika, “Sir, I don’t believe it’s a good idea for the householder Upāli to rebut the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine. For the ascetic Gotama is deceitful. He knows a conversion trick, and uses it to convert the disciples of other religions.” “It is impossible, Tapassī, it cannot happen that Upāli could become Gotama’s disciple. But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple. Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point. For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”

for a second time tooDutiyampi indeedkho Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassī …pe……pe…
for a third time tootatiyampi indeedkho Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassī the Jainnigaṇṭho to the Jainnigaṇṭhaṁ Ñātikanāṭaputtaṁ said this to him:etadavoca:
quote:“na indeedkho this to memetaṁ, sirbhante, is pleasingruccati thatyaṁ Upāliupāli householdergahapati of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa doctrinevādaṁ should refuteāropeyya.
the asceticSamaṇo forhi, sirbhante, Gotamagotamo is deceitfulmāyāvī a conversion trickāvaṭṭaniṁ trickmāyaṁ knowsjānāti by whichyāya of other religionsaññatitthiyānaṁ disciplessāvake convertsāvaṭṭetī”ti.
It is impossible“Aṭṭhānaṁ indeedkho thisetaṁ, Tapassītapassi, cannot happenanavakāso thatyaṁ Upāliupāli householdergahapati of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa discipleshipsāvakattaṁ could go toupagaccheyya.
but it is possibleṬhānañca indeedkho thisetaṁ existsvijjati thatyaṁ the asceticsamaṇo Gotamagotamo of Upāliupālissa householdergahapatissa discipleshipsāvakattaṁ could go toupagaccheyya.
goGaccha youtvaṁ, householdergahapati, of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa in thisimasmiṁ point of discussionkathāvatthusmiṁ doctrinevādaṁ refuteāropehi.
IAhaṁ orvā forhi, householdergahapati, of the asceticsamaṇassa Gotamagotamassa doctrinevādaṁ should refuteāropeyyaṁ, Dīgha Tapassīdīghatapassī orvā the Jainnigaṇṭho, youtvaṁ orvā”ti.

For a second time … and a third time, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Jain Ñātika, “Sir, I don’t believe it’s a good idea for the householder Upāli to rebut the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine. For the ascetic Gotama is deceitful. He knows a conversion trick, and uses it to convert the disciples of other religions.” “It is impossible, Tapassī, it cannot happen that Upāli could become Gotama’s disciple. But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple. Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point. For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”

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