Aggivacchasutta

Majjhima Nikāya 72

With Vacchagotta on Fire · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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“Evaṁ vimuttacitto pana, bho gotama, bhikkhu kuhiṁ upapajjatī”ti?
“Upapajjatīti kho, vaccha, na upeti”.
“Tena hi, bho gotama, na upapajjatī”ti?
“Na upapajjatīti kho, vaccha, na upeti”.
“Tena hi, bho gotama, upapajjati ca na ca upapajjatī”ti?
“Upapajjati ca na ca upapajjatīti kho, vaccha, na upeti”.
“Tena hi, bho gotama, neva upapajjati na na upapajjatī”ti?
“Neva upapajjati na na upapajjatīti kho, vaccha, na upeti”.

“But worthy Gotama, when a mendicant’s mind is freed like this, where are they reborn?” “‘They’re reborn’ doesn’t apply, Vaccha.” “Well then, are they not reborn?” “‘They’re not reborn’ doesn’t apply, Vaccha.” “Well then, are they both reborn and not reborn?” “‘They’re both reborn and not reborn’ doesn’t apply, Vaccha.” “Well then, are they neither reborn nor not reborn?” “‘They’re neither reborn nor not reborn’ doesn’t apply, Vaccha.”

“‘Evaṁ vimuttacitto pana, bho gotama, bhikkhu kuhiṁ upapajjatī’ti iti puṭṭho samāno ‘upapajjatīti kho, vaccha, na upetī’ti vadesi.
‘Tena hi, bho gotama, na upapajjatī’ti iti puṭṭho samāno ‘na upapajjatīti kho, vaccha, na upetī’ti vadesi.
‘Tena hi, bho gotama, upapajjati ca na ca upapajjatī’ti iti puṭṭho samāno ‘upapajjati ca na ca upapajjatīti kho, vaccha, na upetī’ti vadesi.
‘Tena hi, bho gotama, neva upapajjati na na upapajjatī’ti iti puṭṭho samāno ‘neva upapajjati na na upapajjatīti kho, vaccha, na upetī’ti vadesi.
Etthāhaṁ, bho gotama, aññāṇamāpādiṁ, ettha sammohamāpādiṁ.
Yāpi me esā bhoto gotamassa purimena kathāsallāpena ahu pasādamattā sāpi me etarahi antarahitā”ti.

“Worthy Gotama, when asked all these questions, you say: ‘It doesn’t apply.’ I fail to understand this point, worthy Gotama; I’ve fallen into confusion. And I’ve now lost even the degree of clarity I had from previous discussions with the worthy Gotama.”

“Alañhi te, vaccha, aññāṇāya, alaṁ sammohāya.
Gambhīro hāyaṁ, vaccha, dhammo duddaso duranubodho santo paṇīto atakkāvacaro nipuṇo paṇḍitavedanīyo.
So tayā dujjāno aññadiṭṭhikena aññakhantikena aññarucikena aññatrayogena aññatrācariyakena.
Tena hi, vaccha, taññevettha paṭipucchissāmi; yathā te khameyya tathā naṁ byākareyyāsi.

“No wonder you don’t understand, Vaccha, no wonder you’re confused. For this principle is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of logic, subtle, comprehensible to the astute. It’s hard for you to understand, since you have a different view, creed, and belief, and another discipline and denomination. Well then, Vaccha, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like.

Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, vaccha,
sace te purato aggi jaleyya, jāneyyāsi tvaṁ:
‘ayaṁ me purato aggi jalatī’”ti?
“Sace me, bho gotama, purato aggi jaleyya, jāneyyāhaṁ:
‘ayaṁ me purato aggi jalatī’”ti.
“Sace pana taṁ, vaccha, evaṁ puccheyya:
‘yo te ayaṁ purato aggi jalati ayaṁ aggi kiṁ paṭicca jalatī’ti, evaṁ puṭṭho tvaṁ, vaccha, kinti byākareyyāsī”ti?
“Sace maṁ, bho gotama, evaṁ puccheyya:
‘yo te ayaṁ purato aggi jalati ayaṁ aggi kiṁ paṭicca jalatī’ti, evaṁ puṭṭho ahaṁ, bho gotama, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ:
‘yo me ayaṁ purato aggi jalati ayaṁ aggi tiṇakaṭṭhupādānaṁ paṭicca jalatī’”ti.
“Sace te, vaccha, purato so aggi nibbāyeyya, jāneyyāsi tvaṁ:

What do you think, Vaccha? Suppose a fire was burning in front of you. Would you know: ‘This fire is burning in front of me’?” “Yes, I would, worthy Gotama.” “But Vaccha, suppose they were to ask you: ‘This fire burning in front of you: what does it depend on to burn?’ How would you answer?” “I would answer like this: ‘This fire burning in front of me burns in dependence on grass and logs as fuel.’” “Suppose that fire burning in front of you was extinguished. Would you know:

‘ayaṁ me purato aggi nibbuto’”ti?
“Sace me, bho gotama, purato so aggi nibbāyeyya, jāneyyāhaṁ:
‘ayaṁ me purato aggi nibbuto’”ti.
“Sace pana taṁ, vaccha, evaṁ puccheyya:
‘yo te ayaṁ purato aggi nibbuto so aggi ito katamaṁ disaṁ gato—
puratthimaṁ vā dakkhiṇaṁ vā pacchimaṁ vā uttaraṁ vā’ti, evaṁ puṭṭho tvaṁ, vaccha, kinti byākareyyāsī”ti?
“Na upeti, bho gotama, yañhi so, bho gotama, aggi tiṇakaṭṭhupādānaṁ paṭicca ajali tassa ca pariyādānā aññassa ca anupahārā anāhāro nibbutotveva saṅkhyaṁ gacchatī”ti.

‘This fire in front of me is quenched’?” “Yes, I would, worthy Gotama.” “But Vaccha, suppose they were to ask you: ‘This fire in front of you that is quenched: in what direction did it go— east, south, west, or north?’ How would you answer?” “It doesn’t apply, worthy Gotama. The fire depended on grass and logs as fuel. When that runs out, and no more fuel is added, the fire is reckoned to have become quenched due to lack of fuel.”

“In the same way, Vaccha, any form by which a realized one might be described has been given up, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future. A realized one is freed from reckoning in terms of form. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom, like the ocean. ‘They’re reborn’, ‘they’re not reborn’, ‘they’re both reborn and not reborn’, ‘they’re neither reborn nor not reborn’—none of these apply. Any feeling …

Yāya saññāya tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya sā saññā tathāgatassa pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṁ anuppādadhammā.
Saññāsaṅkhayavimutto kho, vaccha, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāḷho—
seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.
Upapajjatīti na upeti, na upapajjatīti na upeti, upapajjati ca na ca upapajjatīti na upeti, neva upapajjati na na upapajjatīti na upeti.
Yehi saṅkhārehi tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya te saṅkhārā tathāgatassa pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṁ anuppādadhammā.
Saṅkhārasaṅkhayavimutto kho, vaccha, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāḷho—
seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.
Upapajjatīti na upeti, na upapajjatīti na upeti, upapajjati ca na ca upapajjatīti na upeti, neva upapajjati na na upapajjatīti na upeti.

perception … choices …

Yena viññāṇena tathāgataṁ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya taṁ viññāṇaṁ tathāgatassa pahīnaṁ ucchinnamūlaṁ tālāvatthukataṁ anabhāvaṅkataṁ āyatiṁ anuppādadhammaṁ.
Viññāṇasaṅkhayavimutto kho, vaccha, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāḷho—
seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.
Upapajjatīti na upeti, na upapajjatīti na upeti, upapajjati ca na ca upapajjatīti na upeti, neva upapajjati na na upapajjatīti na upetī”ti.

consciousness by which a realized one might be described has been given up, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future. A realized one is freed from reckoning in terms of consciousness. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom, like the ocean. ‘They’re reborn’, ‘they’re not reborn’, ‘they’re both reborn and not reborn’, ‘they’re neither reborn nor not reborn’—none of these apply.”

Evaṁ vutte, vacchagotto paribbājako bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:
“seyyathāpi, bho gotama, gāmassa vā nigamassa vā avidūre mahāsālarukkho.
Tassa aniccatā sākhāpalāsā palujjeyyuṁ, tacapapaṭikā palujjeyyuṁ, pheggū palujjeyyuṁ;
so aparena samayena apagatasākhāpalāso apagatatacapapaṭiko apagataphegguko suddho assa, sāre patiṭṭhito;
evameva bhoto gotamassa pāvacanaṁ apagatasākhāpalāsaṁ apagatatacapapaṭikaṁ apagatapheggukaṁ suddhaṁ, sāre patiṭṭhitaṁ.

When he said this, the wanderer Vacchagotta said to the Buddha: “Worthy Gotama, suppose there was a large sal tree not far from a town or village. And because it’s impermanent, its branches and foliage, bark and shoots, and softwood would fall off. After some time it would be rid of branches and foliage, bark and shoots, and softwood, pure, and consolidated in the core. In the same way, worthy Gotama’s dispensation is rid of branches and foliage, bark and shoots, and softwood, pure, and consolidated in the core.

Abhikkantaṁ, bho gotama …pe…
upāsakaṁ maṁ bhavaṁ gotamo dhāretu ajjatagge pāṇupetaṁ saraṇaṁ gatan”ti.
Aggivacchasuttaṁ niṭṭhitaṁ dutiyaṁ.

Excellent, worthy Gotama! … From this day forth, may the worthy Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

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