Kaṇṇakatthalasutta

Majjhima Nikāya 90

At Kaṇṇakatthala · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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“with reason indeed“Heturūpaṁ, sirbhante, the Blessed Onebhagavā saidāha; with reason indeedsaheturūpaṁ, sirbhante, the Blessed Onebhagavā saidāha.
these four, sir, areCattārome, sirbhante, classesvaṇṇā—
aristocratskhattiyā, brahminsbrāhmaṇā, peasantsvessā, workerssuddā.
theyTe if they werecassu with theseimehi with fivepañcahi with factors of strivingpadhāniyaṅgehi endowedsamannāgatā theyte if they werecassu rightly strivingsammappadhānā;
hereettha thenpana for themnesaṁ, sirbhante, there would besiyā a differenceviseso there would besiyā a distinction?”nānākaraṇan”ti?
“In this case“Ettha indeedkho I, for them,nesāhaṁ, great kingmahārāja, notna anykiñci differencenānākaraṇaṁ I say, that is to sayvadāmi—yadidaṁ of freedomvimuttiyā freedomvimuttiṁ.
SupposeSeyyathāpi, great kingmahārāja, a personpuriso drysukkhaṁ teak woodsākakaṭṭhaṁ having takenādāya fireaggiṁ would produceabhinibbatteyya, heattejo would make appearpātukareyya;
then anotherathāparo personpuriso drysukkhaṁ sāl woodsālakaṭṭhaṁ having takenādāya fireaggiṁ would produceabhinibbatteyya, heattejo would make appearpātukareyya;
then anotherathāparo personpuriso drysukkhaṁ mango woodambakaṭṭhaṁ having takenādāya fireaggiṁ would produceabhinibbatteyya, heattejo would make appearpātukareyya;
then anotherathāparo personpuriso drysukkhaṁ cluster fig woodudumbarakaṭṭhaṁ having takenādāya fireaggiṁ would produceabhinibbatteyya, heattejo would make appearpātukareyya.
thatTaṁ whatkiṁ do you thinkmaññasi, great king,mahārāja,

“What the Buddha says appears reasonable. Sir, there are these four classes: aristocrats, brahmins, peasants, and workers. If they had these five factors that support meditation, and if they practiced rightly, would there be any difference between them?” “In that case, I say that there is no difference between the freedom of one and the freedom of the other. Suppose a person took dry teak wood and lit a fire and produced heat. Then another person did the same using sāl wood, another used mango wood, while another used wood of the cluster fig. What do you think, Great King?

would besiyā thennu indeedkho of thosetesaṁ of the firesaggīnaṁ from different woodsnānādāruto producedabhinibbattānaṁ anykiñci differencenānākaraṇaṁ in flameacciyā orvā flameacciṁ, in colorvaṇṇena orvā colorvaṇṇaṁ, in luminosityābhāya orvā luminosity?”ābhan”ti?
“No“No indeed, sirhetaṁ, sir”.bhante”.
“In the same way“Evameva indeed,kho, great king,mahārāja, whichyaṁ thattaṁ firetejaṁ from energyvīriyā churnednimmathitaṁ produced by effortpadhānābhinibbattaṁ, I do notnāhaṁ theretattha anykiñci differencenānākaraṇaṁ I say—that isvadāmi—yadidaṁ in freedomvimuttiyā freedom.”vimuttin”ti.

Would there be any difference between the fires produced by these different kinds of wood, that is, in the flame, color, or luminosity?” “No, sir.” “In the same way, when fire has been churned by energy and produced by effort, I say that there is no difference between the freedom of one and the freedom of the other.”

with reason“Heturūpaṁ, sirbhante, the Blessed Onebhagavā saidāha; with reasonsaheturūpaṁ, sirbhante, the Blessed Onebhagavā saidāha.
whatKiṁ butpana, sirbhante, there areatthi godsdevā”ti?
what“Kiṁ butpana youtvaṁ, great kingmahārāja, thusevaṁ you sayvadesi:
what‘kiṁ butpana, sirbhante, there areatthi godsdevā’”ti?
if“Yadi orvā thosete, sirbhante, godsdevā returnersāgantāro to this stateitthattaṁ ifyadi orvā non-returnersanāgantāro to this stateitthattaṁ”?
those“Ye thosete, great kingmahārāja, godsdevā afflictedsabyābajjhā thosete godsdevā returnersāgantāro to this stateitthattaṁ, thoseye thosete godsdevā unafflictedabyābajjhā thosete godsdevā non-returnersanāgantāro to this stateitthattan”ti.

“What the Buddha says appears reasonable. But sir, do gods survive?” “But what exactly are you asking?” “Whether those gods come back to this place or not.” “Those gods who are afflicted come back to this place, but those who are unafflicted do not come back.”

thusEvaṁ when saidvutte, Viḍūḍabhaviṭaṭūbho generalsenāpati the Blessed Onebhagavantaṁ said thisetadavoca:
which“ye thosete, sirbhante, godsdevā afflictedsabyābajjhā returnersāgantāro to this stateitthattaṁ thosete godsdevā, whichye thosete godsdevā unafflictedabyābajjhā non-returnersanāgantāro to this stateitthattaṁ thosete godsdeve from thattamhā placeṭhānā will topplecāvessanti orvā will expelpabbājessanti quotation markervā”ti?
thenAtha indeedkho Venerableāyasmato Ānandaānandassa this occurredetadahosi:
this“ayaṁ indeedkho Viḍūḍabhaviṭaṭūbho generalsenāpati of the kingrañño Pasenadipasenadissa of Kosalakosalassa sonputto;
Iahaṁ of the Blessed Onebhagavato sonputto.
thisAyaṁ indeedkho timekālo thatyaṁ sonputto with a sonputtena should confermanteyyā”ti.
thenAtha indeedkho Venerableāyasmā Ānandaānando Viḍūḍabhaviṭaṭūbhaṁ generalsenāpatiṁ addressedāmantesi:
by that“tena thenhi, generalsenāpati, I will ask you about this very mattertaññevettha I will question in returnpaṭipucchissāmi; asyathā to youte it may be fittingkhameyya sotathā itnaṁ you may answerbyākareyyāsi.
thisTaṁ whatkiṁ do you thinkmaññasi, generalsenāpati,

When he said this, General Viḍūḍabha said to the Buddha, “Sir, will the gods who are afflicted topple or expel from their place the gods who are unafflicted?” Then Venerable Ānanda thought, “This General Viḍūḍabha is King Pasenadi’s son, and I am the Buddha’s son. Now is the time for one son to confer with another.” So Ānanda addressed General Viḍūḍabha, “Well then, general, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, general?

as far asyāvatā of the kingrañño of Pasenadipasenadissa of Kosalakosalassa dominionvijitaṁ whereyattha andca the kingrājā Pasenadipasenadi of Kosalakosalo sovereignty and overlordshipissariyādhipaccaṁ kingshiprajjaṁ he exerciseskāreti, he is ablepahoti theretattha the kingrājā Pasenadipasenadi of Kosalakosalo an asceticsamaṇaṁ orvā a brahminbrāhmaṇaṁ orvā goodpuññavantaṁ orvā badapuññavantaṁ orvā a genuine spiritual practitionerbrahmacariyavantaṁ orvā not a genuine spiritual practitionerabrahmacariyavantaṁ orvā from thattamhā placeṭhānā to topplecāvetuṁ orvā to expelpabbājetuṁ or?”vā”ti?
“As far as“Yāvatā, worthybho, of the kingrañño of Pasenadipasenadissa of Kosalakosalassa dominionvijitaṁ whereyattha andca the kingrājā Pasenadipasenadi of Kosalakosalo sovereignty and overlordshipissariyādhipaccaṁ kingshiprajjaṁ he exerciseskāreti, he is ablepahoti theretattha the kingrājā Pasenadipasenadi of Kosalakosalo an asceticsamaṇaṁ orvā a brahminbrāhmaṇaṁ orvā goodpuññavantaṁ orvā badapuññavantaṁ orvā a genuine spiritual practitionerbrahmacariyavantaṁ orvā not a genuine spiritual practitionerabrahmacariyavantaṁ orvā from thattamhā placeṭhānā to topplecāvetuṁ orvā to expelpabbājetuṁ or.”vā”ti.
“What“Taṁ do you think?kiṁ you thinkmaññasi, general,senāpati,

As far as the dominion of King Pasenadi of Kosala extends, where he rules as sovereign lord, can he topple or expel from that place any ascetic or brahmin, regardless of whether they are good or bad, or whether or not they are genuine spiritual practitioners?” “He can, worthy.” “What do you think, general?

as far asyāvatā of the kingrañño Pasenadipasenadissa of Kosalakosalassa unconquered territoryavijitaṁ whereyattha andca kingrājā Pasenadipasenadi Kosalankosalo notna sovereign lordshipissariyādhipaccaṁ kingdomrajjaṁ he ruleskāreti, theretattha he is ablepahoti kingrājā Pasenadipasenadi Kosalankosalo asceticsamaṇaṁ orvā brahminbrāhmaṇaṁ orvā virtuouspuññavantaṁ orvā non-virtuousapuññavantaṁ orvā living the holy lifebrahmacariyavantaṁ orvā not living the holy lifeabrahmacariyavantaṁ orvā from thattamhā from the placeṭhānā to topplecāvetuṁ orvā to expelpabbājetuṁ or?"vā”ti?
"As far as“Yāvatā, worthybho, of the kingrañño Pasenadipasenadissa of Kosalakosalassa unconquered territoryavijitaṁ whereyattha andca kingrājā Pasenadipasenadi Kosalankosalo notna sovereign lordshipissariyādhipaccaṁ kingdomrajjaṁ he ruleskāreti, notna theretattha he is ablepahoti kingrājā Pasenadipasenadi Kosalankosalo asceticsamaṇaṁ orvā brahminbrāhmaṇaṁ orvā virtuouspuññavantaṁ orvā non-virtuousapuññavantaṁ orvā living the holy lifebrahmacariyavantaṁ orvā not living the holy lifeabrahmacariyavantaṁ orvā from thattamhā from the placeṭhānā to topplecāvetuṁ orvā to expelpabbājetuṁ or."vā”ti.
"That“Taṁ whatkiṁ you thinkmaññasi, generalsenāpati,
heardsutā by youte godsdevā the Thirty-Threetāvatiṁsā”ti?
"Yes“Evaṁ, worthybho.
heardSutā by meme godsdevā the Thirty-Threetāvatiṁsā.
and here alsoIdhāpi by the worthybhotā by the kingraññā Pasenadipasenadinā Kosalankosalena heardsutā godsdevā the Thirty-Three."tāvatiṁsā”ti.

As far as the dominion of King Pasenadi does not extend, where he does not rule as sovereign lord, can he topple or expel from that place any ascetic or brahmin, regardless of whether they are good or bad, or whether or not they are genuine spiritual practitioners?” “He cannot, worthy.” “What do you think, general? Have you heard of the gods of the thirty-three?” “Yes, worthy, I’ve heard of them, and so has the worthy King Pasenadi.”

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