Devadahasutta

Majjhima Nikāya 101

At Devadaha · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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one who speaks thus tooEvaṁvādīpi indeedkho Iahaṁ, O monksbhikkhave, among the Jainsnigaṇṭhesu notna anykañci legitimatesahadhammikaṁ defense of doctrinevādapaṭihāraṁ I seesamanupassāmi.

When I said this, I did not see any legitimate defense of their doctrine from the Jains.

againPuna and furthercaparāhaṁ, monksbhikkhave, thosete Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhe thusevaṁ I sayvadāmi:
that‘taṁ whatkiṁ do you think, reverendsmaññathāvuso Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhā, that which, thisyamidaṁ deedkammaṁ to be experienced in this lifediṭṭhadhammavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by strivingpadhānena orvā to be experienced in lives to comesamparāyavedanīyaṁ let it be; quotation markerhotūti can this be gottenlabbhametan’ti?
no‘No indeed, thishidaṁ, reverendāvuso’.
but‘Yaṁ but thispanidaṁ deedkammaṁ to be experienced in lives to comesamparāyavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by strivingpadhānena orvā to be experienced in this lifediṭṭhadhammavedanīyaṁ let it be; quotation markerhotūti can this be gottenlabbhametan’ti?
no‘No indeed, thishidaṁ, reverendāvuso’.

Furthermore, I said to those Jain ascetics, ‘What do you think, reverends? If a deed is to be experienced in this life, can exertion make it be experienced in lives to come?’ ‘No, reverend.’ ‘But if a deed is to be experienced in lives to come, can exertion make it be experienced in this life?’ ‘No, reverend.’

that‘Taṁ what?kiṁ do you think, reverendsmaññathāvuso Nigaṇṭhasnigaṇṭhā, that which here isyamidaṁ deedkammaṁ to be experienced as pleasantsukhavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by effortpadhānena orvā to be experienced as painfuldukkhavedanīyaṁ let it behotūti can this be obtained?labbhametan’ti?
No‘No indeed thishidaṁ, reverendāvuso’.
which‘Yaṁ but this herepanidaṁ deedkammaṁ to be experienced as painfuldukkhavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by effortpadhānena orvā to be experienced as pleasantsukhavedanīyaṁ let it behotūti can this be obtained?labbhametan’ti?
No‘No indeed thishidaṁ, reverendāvuso’.

‘What do you think, reverends? If a deed is to be experienced as pleasant, can exertion make it be experienced as painful?’ ‘No, reverend.’ ‘But if a deed is to be experienced as painful, can exertion make it be experienced as pleasant?’ ‘No, reverend.’

that‘Taṁ what?kiṁ do you think, reverendsmaññathāvuso Nigaṇṭhasnigaṇṭhā, which indeed thisyamidaṁ deedkammaṁ to be experienced when ripeparipakkavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by strivingpadhānena orvā to be experienced when unripeaparipakkavedanīyaṁ let it be; quotation markerhotūti is it possible?labbhametan’ti?
no‘No indeed, reverendhidaṁ, reverendāvuso’.
which‘Yaṁ but indeed thispanidaṁ deedkammaṁ to be experienced when unripeaparipakkavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by strivingpadhānena orvā to be experienced when ripeparipakkavedanīyaṁ let it be; quotation markerhotūti is it possible?labbhametan’ti?
no‘No indeed, reverendhidaṁ, reverendāvuso’.

‘What do you think, reverends? If a deed is to be experienced when ripe, can exertion make it be experienced when unripe?’ ‘No, reverend.’ ‘But if a deed is to be experienced when unripe, can exertion make it be experienced when ripe?’ ‘No, reverend.’

that‘Taṁ what?kiṁ do you think, reverends?maññathāvuso Nigaṇṭhas,nigaṇṭhā, that which is thisyamidaṁ deedkammaṁ to be experienced a lotbahuvedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by effortpadhānena orvā to be experienced a littleappavedanīyaṁ let it be, they sayhotūti this is possible?labbhametan’ti?
no‘No indeed,hidaṁ, reverend.āvuso’.
that which‘Yaṁ but thispanidaṁ deedkammaṁ to be experienced a littleappavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by effortpadhānena orvā to be experienced a lotbahuvedanīyaṁ let it be, they sayhotūti this is possible?labbhametan’ti?
no‘No indeed,hidaṁ, reverend.āvuso’.

‘What do you think, reverends? If a deed is to be experienced a lot, can exertion make it be experienced a little?’ ‘No, reverend.’ ‘But if a deed is to be experienced a little, can exertion make it be experienced a lot?’ ‘No, reverend.’

'that‘Taṁ what?kiṁ do you think, reverends?maññathāvuso Nigaṇṭhas,nigaṇṭhā, that which hereyamidaṁ deedkammaṁ to be experiencedsavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by strivingpadhānena orvā not to be experiencedavedanīyaṁ may it be so?hotūti is that possible?'labbhametan’ti?
'No‘No indeed,hidaṁ, reverend'.āvuso’.
'But‘Yaṁ that which herepanidaṁ deedkammaṁ not to be experiencedavedanīyaṁ thattaṁ by exertionupakkamena orvā by strivingpadhānena orvā to be experiencedsavedanīyaṁ may it be so?hotūti is that possible?'labbhametan’ti?
'No‘No indeed,hidaṁ, reverend'.āvuso’.

‘What do you think, reverends? If a deed is to be experienced, can exertion make it not be experienced?’ ‘No, reverend.’ ‘But if a deed is not to be experienced, can exertion make it be experienced?’ ‘No, reverend.’

‘So it seems that exertion cannot change the way deeds are experienced in any of these ways.

thusevaṁ being sosante venerable onesāyasmantānaṁ of the Nigaṇṭhasnigaṇṭhānaṁ fruitlessaphalo exertionupakkamo ishoti, fruitlessaphalaṁ strivingpadhānaṁ’.

This being so, your exertion and striving are fruitless.’

speaking thusEvaṁvādī, monksbhikkhave, Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhā.
of those speaking thusEvaṁvādīnaṁ, monksbhikkhave, of the Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhānaṁ tendasa legitimatesahadhammikā grounds for rebuttal and criticismvādānuvādā deserving of censuregārayhaṁ groundṭhānaṁ they come toāgacchanti.
ifSace, monksbhikkhave, sentient beingssattā because of past deedspubbekatahetu pleasure and painsukhadukkhaṁ they experiencepaṭisaṁvedenti;
clearlyaddhā, monksbhikkhave, the Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhā in the pastpubbe doers of bad deedsdukkaṭakammakārino sinceyaṁ nowetarahi suchevarūpā painfuldukkhā sharptibbā bitingkaṭukā painful feelingsvedanā they experiencevediyanti.
ifSace, monksbhikkhave, sentient beingssattā because of God Almighty's creationissaranimmānahetu pleasure and painsukhadukkhaṁ they experiencepaṭisaṁvedenti;
clearlyaddhā, monksbhikkhave, the Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhā by a bad Godpāpakena by Godissarena creatednimmitā sinceyaṁ nowetarahi suchevarūpā painfuldukkhā sharptibbā bitingkaṭukā painful feelingsvedanā they experiencevediyanti.
ifSace, monksbhikkhave, sentient beingssattā because of circumstance and naturesaṅgatibhāvahetu pleasure and painsukhadukkhaṁ they experiencepaṭisaṁvedenti;
clearlyaddhā, monksbhikkhave, the Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhā arising from bad circumstancespāpasaṅgatikā sinceyaṁ nowetarahi suchevarūpā painfuldukkhā sharptibbā bitingkaṭukā painful feelingsvedanā they experiencevediyanti.
ifSace, monksbhikkhave, sentient beingssattā because of the class of rebirthabhijātihetu pleasure and painsukhadukkhaṁ they experiencepaṭisaṁvedenti;
clearlyaddhā, monksbhikkhave, the Jain asceticsnigaṇṭhā reborn in a bad classpāpābhijātikā sinceyaṁ nowetarahi suchevarūpā painfuldukkhā sharptibbā bitingkaṭukā painful feelingsvedanā they experiencevediyanti.
ifSace, monksbhikkhave, sentient beingssattā because of exertion in this lifediṭṭhadhammūpakkamahetu pleasure and painsukhadukkhaṁ they experiencepaṭisaṁvedenti;

Such is the doctrine of the Jain ascetics. Saying this, the Jain ascetics deserve rebuttal and criticism on ten legitimate grounds. If sentient beings experience pleasure and pain because of past deeds, clearly the Jains have done bad deeds in the past, since they now experience such intense pain. If sentient beings experience pleasure and pain because of God Almighty’s creation, clearly the Jains were created by a bad God, since they now experience such intense pain. If sentient beings experience pleasure and pain because of circumstance and nature, clearly the Jains arise from bad circumstances, since they now experience such intense pain. If sentient beings experience pleasure and pain because of the class of rebirth, clearly the Jains have been reborn in a bad class, since they now experience such intense pain. If sentient beings experience pleasure and pain because of exertion in this life,

clearly the Jains exert themselves badly in this life, since they now experience such intense pain. The Jains deserve criticism whether or not sentient beings experience pleasure and pain because of past deeds, or God Almighty’s creation, or circumstance and nature, or class of rebirth, or exertion in this life. Such is the doctrine of the Jain ascetics.

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