Cūḷasaccakasutta

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Majjhima Nikāya 35

The Shorter Discourse With Saccaka · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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Evaṁ me sutaṁ—
ekaṁ samayaṁ bhagavā vesāliyaṁ viharati mahāvane kūṭāgārasālāyaṁ.

So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Vesālī, at the Great Wood, in the hall with the peaked roof.

Tena kho pana samayena saccako nigaṇṭhaputto vesāliyaṁ paṭivasati bhassappavādako paṇḍitavādo sādhusammato bahujanassa.
So vesāliyaṁ parisati evaṁ vācaṁ bhāsati:
“nāhaṁ taṁ passāmi samaṇaṁ vā brāhmaṇaṁ vā, saṅghiṁ gaṇiṁ gaṇācariyaṁ, api arahantaṁ sammāsambuddhaṁ paṭijānamānaṁ, yo mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddho na saṅkampeyya na sampakampeyya na sampavedheyya, yassa na kacchehi sedā mucceyyuṁ.
Thūṇaṁ cepāhaṁ acetanaṁ vādena vādaṁ samārabheyyaṁ, sāpi mayā vādena vādaṁ samāraddhā saṅkampeyya sampakampeyya sampavedheyya.
Ko pana vādo manussabhūtassā”ti?

Now at that time Saccaka, the son of Jain parents, was staying in Vesālī. He was a controversialist who pretended to be astute and was deemed holy by many people. He was telling a crowd in Vesālī, “I don’t see any ascetic or brahmin who would not shake and rock and tremble, sweating from the armpits, were I to take them on in debate—not a leader of an order or a community, or the tutor of a community, and not even one who claims to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha. Even an insentient post would shake and rock and tremble were I to take it on in debate. How much more then a human being!”

Atha kho āyasmā assaji pubbaṇhasamayaṁ nivāsetvā pattacīvaramādāya vesāliṁ piṇḍāya pāvisi.
Addasā kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto vesāliyaṁ jaṅghāvihāraṁ anucaṅkamamāno anuvicaramāno āyasmantaṁ assajiṁ dūratova āgacchantaṁ.
Disvāna yenāyasmā assaji tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā āyasmatā assajinā saddhiṁ sammodi.
Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ aṭṭhāsi. Ekamantaṁ ṭhito kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto āyasmantaṁ assajiṁ etadavoca:

Then Venerable Assaji robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, entered Vesālī for alms. As Saccaka was going for a walk he saw Assaji coming off in the distance. He approached him and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, Saccaka stood to one side and said to Assaji,

“kathaṁ pana, bho assaji, samaṇo gotamo sāvake vineti, kathaṁbhāgā ca pana samaṇassa gotamassa sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattatī”ti?
“Evaṁ kho, aggivessana, bhagavā sāvake vineti, evaṁbhāgā ca pana bhagavato sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattati:
‘rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ, vedanā aniccā, saññā aniccā, saṅkhārā aniccā, viññāṇaṁ aniccaṁ.
Rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, anattā, vedanā anattā, saññā anattā, saṅkhārā anattā, viññāṇaṁ anattā.
Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā, sabbe dhammā anattā’ti.
Evaṁ kho, aggivessana, bhagavā sāvake vineti, evaṁbhāgā ca pana bhagavato sāvakesu anusāsanī bahulā pavattatī”ti.
“Dussutaṁ vata, bho assaji, assumha ye mayaṁ evaṁvādiṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ assumha.

“Worthy Assaji, how does the ascetic Gotama guide his disciples? And on what topics does instruction to his disciples generally proceed?” “Aggivessana, this is how the Buddha guides his disciples, and his instructions to disciples generally proceed on these topics: ‘Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are impermanent. Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are not-self. All conditions are impermanent. All things are not-self.’ This is how the Buddha guides his disciples, and how instruction to his disciples generally proceeds.” “It’s sad to hear, worthy Assaji, that the ascetic Gotama has such a doctrine.

Appeva nāma mayaṁ kadāci karahaci tena bhotā gotamena saddhiṁ samāgaccheyyāma, appeva nāma siyā kocideva kathāsallāpo, appeva nāma tasmā pāpakā diṭṭhigatā viveceyyāmā”ti.

Hopefully, some time or other I’ll get to meet the worthy Gotama, and we can have a discussion. And hopefully I can dissuade him from this harmful misconception.”

Tena kho pana samayena pañcamattāni licchavisatāni santhāgāre sannipatitāni honti kenacideva karaṇīyena.
Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto yena te licchavī tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā te licchavī etadavoca:
“abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, ajja me samaṇena gotamena saddhiṁ kathāsallāpo bhavissati.
Sace me samaṇo gotamo tathā patiṭṭhissati yathā ca me ñātaññatarena sāvakena assajinā nāma bhikkhunā patiṭṭhitaṁ, seyyathāpi nāma balavā puriso dīghalomikaṁ eḷakaṁ lomesu gahetvā ākaḍḍheyya parikaḍḍheyya samparikaḍḍheyya;
evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ ākaḍḍhissāmi parikaḍḍhissāmi samparikaḍḍhissāmi.
Seyyathāpi nāma balavā soṇḍikākammakāro mahantaṁ soṇḍikākiḷañjaṁ gambhīre udakarahade pakkhipitvā kaṇṇe gahetvā ākaḍḍheyya parikaḍḍheyya samparikaḍḍheyya;
evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ ākaḍḍhissāmi parikaḍḍhissāmi samparikaḍḍhissāmi.

Now at that time around five hundred Licchavis were sitting together at the town hall on some business. Then Saccaka went up to them and said, “Come forth, good Licchavīs, come forth! Today I am going to have a discussion with the ascetic Gotama. If he stands by the position stated to me by one of his well-known disciples—a mendicant named Assaji—I’ll take him on in debate and drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong man would grab a fleecy sheep and drag it to and fro and round about! Taking him on in debate, I’ll drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong brewer’s worker would toss a large brewer’s sieve into a deep lake, grab it by the corners, and drag it to and fro and round about!

Seyyathāpi nāma balavā soṇḍikādhutto vālaṁ kaṇṇe gahetvā odhuneyya niddhuneyya nipphoṭeyya;
evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ vādena vādaṁ odhunissāmi niddhunissāmi nipphoṭessāmi.
Seyyathāpi nāma kuñjaro saṭṭhihāyano gambhīraṁ pokkharaṇiṁ ogāhetvā sāṇadhovikaṁ nāma kīḷitajātaṁ kīḷati;
evamevāhaṁ samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ sāṇadhovikaṁ maññe kīḷitajātaṁ kīḷissāmi.
Abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, abhikkamantu bhonto licchavī, ajja me samaṇena gotamena saddhiṁ kathāsallāpo bhavissatī”ti.

Taking him on in debate, I’ll shake him down and about, and give him a beating, like a strong brewer’s mixer would grab a strainer by the corners and shake it down and about, and give it a beating! I’ll play a game of hemp-washing with the ascetic Gotama, like a sixty-year-old elephant would plunge into a deep lotus pond and play a game of hemp-washing! Come forth, good Licchavīs, come forth! Today I am going to have a discussion with the ascetic Gotama.”

Tatrekacce licchavī evamāhaṁsu:
“kiṁ samaṇo gotamo saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa vādaṁ āropessati, atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto samaṇassa gotamassa vādaṁ āropessatī”ti?
Ekacce licchavī evamāhaṁsu:
“kiṁ so bhavamāno saccako nigaṇṭhaputto yo bhagavato vādaṁ āropessati, atha kho bhagavā saccakassa nigaṇṭhaputtassa vādaṁ āropessatī”ti?
Atha kho saccako nigaṇṭhaputto pañcamattehi licchavisatehi parivuto yena mahāvanaṁ kūṭāgārasālā tenupasaṅkami.

At that, some of the Licchavis said, “How can the ascetic Gotama refute Saccaka’s doctrine, when it is Saccaka who will refute Gotama’s doctrine?” But some of the Licchavis said, “Who is Saccaka to refute the Buddha’s doctrine, when it is the Buddha who will refute Saccaka’s doctrine?” Then Saccaka, escorted by the five hundred Licchavis, went to the hall with the peaked roof in the Great Wood.

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