Aggivacchasutta

Majjhima Nikāya 72

With Vacchagotta on Fire · Translation: Bhikkhu Sujato, SuttaCentral

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“thus“Evaṁ with freed mindvimuttacitto butpana, worthybho Gotamagotama, mendicantbhikkhu wherekuhiṁ is reborn?”upapajjatī”ti?
“'is reborn'“Upapajjatīti indeedkho, Vacchavaccha, notna appliesupeti”.
“well then“Tena indeedhi, worthybho Gotamagotama, notna is reborn?”upapajjatī”ti?
“'not“Na is reborn'upapajjatīti indeedkho, Vacchavaccha, notna appliesupeti”.
“well then“Tena indeedhi, worthybho Gotamagotama, is rebornupapajjati andca notna andca is reborn?”upapajjatī”ti?
“'is reborn“Upapajjati andca notna andca is reborn'upapajjatīti indeedkho, Vacchavaccha, notna appliesupeti”.
“well then“Tena indeedhi, worthybho Gotamagotama, neitherneva is rebornupapajjati norna notna is reborn?”upapajjatī”ti?
“'neither“Neva is rebornupapajjati norna notna is reborn'upapajjatīti indeedkho, Vacchavaccha, notna appliesupeti”.

“But worthy Gotama, when a mendicant’s mind is freed like this, where are they reborn?” “‘They’re reborn’ doesn’t apply, Vaccha.” “Well then, are they not reborn?” “‘They’re not reborn’ doesn’t apply, Vaccha.” “Well then, are they both reborn and not reborn?” “‘They’re both reborn and not reborn’ doesn’t apply, Vaccha.” “Well then, are they neither reborn nor not reborn?” “‘They’re neither reborn nor not reborn’ doesn’t apply, Vaccha.”

thus“‘Evaṁ liberated in mindvimuttacitto nowpana, worthybho Gotamagotama, monkbhikkhu wherekuhiṁ is rebornupapajjatī’ti thusiti askedpuṭṭho beingsamāno is reborn‘upapajjatīti indeedkho, Vacchavaccha, does notna applyupetī’ti you sayvadesi.
then‘Tena sohi, worthybho Gotamagotama, is notna rebornupapajjatī’ti thusiti askedpuṭṭho beingsamāno is not‘na rebornupapajjatīti indeedkho, Vacchavaccha, does notna applyupetī’ti you sayvadesi.
then‘Tena sohi, worthybho Gotamagotama, is rebornupapajjati andca is notna andca rebornupapajjatī’ti thusiti askedpuṭṭho beingsamāno is reborn‘upapajjati andca is notna andca rebornupapajjatīti indeedkho, Vacchavaccha, does notna applyupetī’ti you sayvadesi.
then‘Tena sohi, worthybho Gotamagotama, neitherneva is rebornupapajjati norna is notna rebornupapajjatī’ti thusiti askedpuṭṭho beingsamāno neither‘neva is rebornupapajjati norna is notna rebornupapajjatīti indeedkho, Vacchavaccha, does notna applyupetī’ti you sayvadesi.
here IEtthāhaṁ, worthybho Gotamagotama, came to ignoranceaññāṇamāpādiṁ, hereettha came to delusionsammohamāpādiṁ.
whateverYāpi to meme thisesā of the worthybhoto of Gotamagotamassa previouspurimena conversationkathāsallāpena wasahu measure of claritypasādamattā thatsāpi to meme nowetarahi has disappearedantarahitā”ti.

“Worthy Gotama, when asked all these questions, you say: ‘It doesn’t apply.’ I fail to understand this point, worthy Gotama; I’ve fallen into confusion. And I’ve now lost even the degree of clarity I had from previous discussions with the worthy Gotama.”

no wonder indeed“Alañhi for youte, Vacchavaccha, for ignoranceaññāṇāya, no wonderalaṁ for confusionsammohāya.
deepGambhīro indeed thishāyaṁ, Vacchavaccha, principledhammo hard to seeduddaso hard to understandduranubodho peacefulsanto sublimepaṇīto beyond the scope of logicatakkāvacaro subtlenipuṇo comprehensible to the astutepaṇḍitavedanīyo.
itSo by youtayā hard to understanddujjāno having a different viewaññadiṭṭhikena having a different creedaññakhantikena having a different beliefaññarucikena having another disciplineaññatrayogena having another denominationaññatrācariyakena.
well thenTena indeedhi, Vacchavaccha, this very thing heretaññevettha I will ask in returnpaṭipucchissāmi; asyathā to youte it may seem fitkhameyya sotathā itnaṁ you may answerbyākareyyāsi.

“No wonder you don’t understand, Vaccha, no wonder you’re confused. For this principle is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of logic, subtle, comprehensible to the astute. It’s hard for you to understand, since you have a different view, creed, and belief, and another discipline and denomination. Well then, Vaccha, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like.

thatTaṁ what?kiṁ do you thinkmaññasi, Vacchavaccha,
ifsace to youte in frontpurato fireaggi would burnjaleyya, you would knowjāneyyāsi youtvaṁ:
'this‘ayaṁ myme in frontpurato fireaggi is burning'”ti?jalatī’”ti?
“If“Sace my,me, worthybho Gotama,gotama, in frontpurato fireaggi would burn,jaleyya, I would know:jāneyyāhaṁ:
'this‘ayaṁ myme in frontpurato fireaggi is burning'”ti.jalatī’”ti.
“But“Sace againpana you,taṁ, Vaccha,vaccha, thusevaṁ they might ask:puccheyya:
'which‘yo of youte thisayaṁ in frontpurato fireaggi burnsjalati thisayaṁ fireaggi whatkiṁ depending onpaṭicca burns'”ti,jalatī’ti, thusevaṁ askedpuṭṭho you,tvaṁ, Vaccha,vaccha, howkinti would you answer?”ti?byākareyyāsī”ti?
“If“Sace me,maṁ, worthybho Gotama,gotama, thusevaṁ they might ask:puccheyya:
'which‘yo of youte thisayaṁ in frontpurato fireaggi burnsjalati thisayaṁ fireaggi whatkiṁ depending onpaṭicca burns'”ti,jalatī’ti, thusevaṁ askedpuṭṭho I,ahaṁ, worthybho Gotama,gotama, thusevaṁ I would answer:byākareyyaṁ:
'which‘yo myme thisayaṁ in frontpurato fireaggi burnsjalati thisayaṁ fireaggi grass and logs as fueltiṇakaṭṭhupādānaṁ depending onpaṭicca burns'”ti.jalatī’”ti.
“If“Sace your,te, Vaccha,vaccha, in frontpurato thatso fireaggi would be extinguished,nibbāyeyya, you would knowjāneyyāsi you:tvaṁ:

What do you think, Vaccha? Suppose a fire was burning in front of you. Would you know: ‘This fire is burning in front of me’?” “Yes, I would, worthy Gotama.” “But Vaccha, suppose they were to ask you: ‘This fire burning in front of you: what does it depend on to burn?’ How would you answer?” “I would answer like this: ‘This fire burning in front of me burns in dependence on grass and logs as fuel.’” “Suppose that fire burning in front of you was extinguished. Would you know:

this‘ayaṁ of meme in frontpurato fireaggi is quenchednibbuto’”ti?
if“Sace to meme, worthybho Gotamagotama, in frontpurato thatso fireaggi were to be quenchednibbāyeyya, I would knowjāneyyāhaṁ:
this‘ayaṁ of meme in frontpurato fireaggi is quenchednibbuto’”ti.
if“Sace butpana youtaṁ, Vacchavaccha, thusevaṁ were to askpuccheyya:
which‘yo yourte thisayaṁ in frontpurato fireaggi quenchednibbuto thatso fireaggi from hereito whichkatamaṁ directiondisaṁ wentgato—
eastpuratthimaṁ orvā southdakkhiṇaṁ orvā westpacchimaṁ orvā northuttaraṁ orvā’ti, thusevaṁ askedpuṭṭho youtvaṁ, Vacchavaccha, howkinti would you answerbyākareyyāsī”ti?
not“Na it appliesupeti, worthybho Gotamagotama, becauseyañhi thatso, worthybho Gotamagotama, fireaggi grass and logs as fueltiṇakaṭṭhupādānaṁ depending onpaṭicca burnedajali of thattassa andca when it runs outpariyādānā of anotheraññassa andca not addinganupahārā without fuelanāhāro quenched indeednibbutotveva assaṅkhyaṁ is reckonedgacchatī”ti.

‘This fire in front of me is quenched’?” “Yes, I would, worthy Gotama.” “But Vaccha, suppose they were to ask you: ‘This fire in front of you that is quenched: in what direction did it go— east, south, west, or north?’ How would you answer?” “It doesn’t apply, worthy Gotama. The fire depended on grass and logs as fuel. When that runs out, and no more fuel is added, the fire is reckoned to have become quenched due to lack of fuel.”

“In the same way, Vaccha, any form by which a realized one might be described has been given up, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future. A realized one is freed from reckoning in terms of form. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom, like the ocean. ‘They’re reborn’, ‘they’re not reborn’, ‘they’re both reborn and not reborn’, ‘they’re neither reborn nor not reborn’—none of these apply. Any feeling …

perception … choices …

by whichYena by consciousnessviññāṇena a realized onetathāgataṁ being describedpaññāpayamāno might describepaññāpeyya thattaṁ consciousnessviññāṇaṁ of a realized onetathāgatassa has been given uppahīnaṁ cut off at the rootucchinnamūlaṁ made like a palm stumptālāvatthukataṁ obliteratedanabhāvaṅkataṁ in the futureāyatiṁ unable to ariseanuppādadhammaṁ.
freed from reckoning in terms of consciousnessViññāṇasaṅkhayavimutto indeedkho, Vacchavaccha, a realized onetathāgato deepgambhīro immeasurableappameyyo hard to fathomduppariyogāḷho—
just asseyyathāpi the great oceanmahāsamuddo.
'they're reborn'Upapajjatīti notna appliesupeti, notna 'they're not reborn'upapajjatīti notna appliesupeti, 'they're reborn'upapajjati andca notna andca 'they're not reborn'upapajjatīti notna appliesupeti, neitherneva they're rebornupapajjati notna norna 'they're not reborn'upapajjatīti notna appliesupetī”ti.

consciousness by which a realized one might be described has been given up, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future. A realized one is freed from reckoning in terms of consciousness. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom, like the ocean. ‘They’re reborn’, ‘they’re not reborn’, ‘they’re both reborn and not reborn’, ‘they’re neither reborn nor not reborn’—none of these apply.”

thusEvaṁ when saidvutte, Vacchagottavacchagotto wandererparibbājako to the Buddhabhagavantaṁ said thisetadavoca:
suppose“seyyathāpi, worthybho Gotamagotama, of a villagegāmassa orvā of a townnigamassa orvā not faravidūre large sal treemahāsālarukkho.
itsTassa impermanenceaniccatā branches and foliagesākhāpalāsā would fall offpalujjeyyuṁ, bark and shootstacapapaṭikā would fall offpalujjeyyuṁ, softwoodpheggū would fall offpalujjeyyuṁ;
itso afteraparena timesamayena rid of branches and foliageapagatasākhāpalāso rid of bark and shootsapagatatacapapaṭiko rid of softwoodapagataphegguko puresuddho would beassa, in the coresāre establishedpatiṭṭhito;
in the same wayevameva of worthybhoto Gotama'sgotamassa dispensationpāvacanaṁ rid of branches and foliageapagatasākhāpalāsaṁ rid of bark and shootsapagatatacapapaṭikaṁ rid of softwoodapagatapheggukaṁ puresuddhaṁ, in the coresāre establishedpatiṭṭhitaṁ.

When he said this, the wanderer Vacchagotta said to the Buddha: “Worthy Gotama, suppose there was a large sal tree not far from a town or village. And because it’s impermanent, its branches and foliage, bark and shoots, and softwood would fall off. After some time it would be rid of branches and foliage, bark and shoots, and softwood, pure, and consolidated in the core. In the same way, worthy Gotama’s dispensation is rid of branches and foliage, bark and shoots, and softwood, pure, and consolidated in the core.

excellentAbhikkantaṁ, worthybho Gotamagotama …pe……pe…
lay followerupāsakaṁ memaṁ worthybhavaṁ Gotamagotamo may rememberdhāretu from this day forthajjatagge for lifepāṇupetaṁ refugesaraṇaṁ gonegatan”ti.
the Discourse to AggivacchaAggivacchasuttaṁ finishedniṭṭhitaṁ seconddutiyaṁ.

Excellent, worthy Gotama! … From this day forth, may the worthy Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

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